Posted on Apr 12, 2015
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
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Hand of god
What are the best arguments for or against the existence of God?

I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.

Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.

To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
Posted in these groups: Sistine chapel image of god GodWorld religions 2 ReligionAtheism symbol Atheism
Edited 9 y ago
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SA Harold Hansmann
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At this point the whole "religious" thing is getting to be "who cares anymore" it is becoming like the O.J. Simpson trial. Long and drawn out with a heaping of tiresome.
BELIEVE WHAT EWE WANT TO BELIEVE AND KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.
It's that easy.
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SA Harold Hansmann
SA Harold Hansmann
9 y
All that I can ask is for anyone not to push their on me or anyone else.
If someone comes up to you and asks about your religion, by all means, feel free to tell them.
I, personally have tried various religions, from Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, Jehovah's Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, Wicca, Taoism, and several others.
In Shamanism / Druidic, I have found my peace and where I belong. I don't really want someone trying to disuade me from my choice in religion.
I am happy for you in your religion. Everyone needs something to believe in.
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SA Harold Hansmann
SA Harold Hansmann
9 y
And y'all wonder why the atheists are on a rampage.
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SA Harold Hansmann
SA Harold Hansmann
9 y
Ain't that the "Christian" thing to do?
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SA Harold Hansmann
SA Harold Hansmann
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Caring
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SSG Mike Angelo
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I believe that God exist. We all come from different backgrounds, ethnicities, social and cultural constructs; we all unique. We come into the military via contract and take that oath...:so help me God. The military acknowledges the existance of God, yet respects those differences of agnostic and/or athiestic beliefs.

In my lifetime, a true test of Gods existance is to take one out of their comfort zone, and into a chaotic environment and observe a change in behavior. In both war and peace, each of us has a level understanding of what it is that we are asked to do...action...And we all have limits and boundaries of appropriate and inappropriate behavior. To some, our breaking point can be visible and yet invisible. It is at that point where God shows Himself to humanity more frequently. The journey with God is a good path for me. To other people it may be a different story.
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MAJ Infantry Officer
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SPC Kinas, of all the talk of museums and your "science" based beliefs, what among any of those is anything further than a theory? A theory is unproven and could be considered "fluff" by some. The theories you seem to subscribe to, they will remain unproven indefinitely and are therefore no more valid or invalid than any other person's belief in the origination of the physical universe.
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SPC Safety Technician
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MAJ (Join to see) A scientific theory will never be 100% accurate and an immutable fact. Scientific theories will never be gospel.

A theory in science is a model for (part of) the universe that accounts for as much the empirical data obtained as possible. Another qualifier for a theory is that it must be falsifiable and be predictive. This way, it can be determined how accurate the model is, and when it must be modified with the addition of newly discovered data/research about the universe. It get really old explaining this.

Any way, theories don't know everything. If it did, we wouldn't need them. No scientist considers the theory of gravity "fluff" because, though it is not completely understood, its predictive abilities are vastly useful.

See the difference. Science doesn't guess at anything without testing it, and never trusts any explanation 100%. Religion does that.

Museums change to incorporate new information. Do churches?
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MAJ Infantry Officer
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Explain to me the known science and actual evidence to support evolution and the big bang theory. It is all conjecture. No missing links have ever been found. There is not a single shred of actual demonstrable evidence for the big bang theory as well. You may believe what you wish just as I do.
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SPC Safety Technician
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big bang, or cosmological theory, accounts for red shifting of distant stars, and helps explain these motions. There's one example.

evolution has actually been directly and empirically observed in diverging species of fruit flies in a laboratory setting.

Missing link? On what basis are scientists wrong regarding these fossils?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis#Fossils (not a source, just a list. Sources are below.)

MAJ (Join to see) If the theory of evolution could not have described, how would you account for speciation. If the cosmos did not come from a rapid expansion a very long time ago, how do you account for red-shift? And, fossils!?

Here's the thing: a theory only works if it explains empirical evidence and makes predictions based on that evidence. Theories are not gospel, but they work, until they don't, then they're changed or replaced with something better. evidence precedes theory. that's the scientific method. is there a better method?

To trust science is doing its thing does not require faith at all. We can see the practical applications of the efforts of science. Because of science, it is demonstrable that humans better understand nature and can better manipulate it as a result. And, if you still don't buy it, you can research it yourself.
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MSG Intermediate Care Technician
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Truly, this can only be answered by each individual as they believe. Otherwise, all this particular question does is open up a storm where rarely can anyone keep their military composure when entering in these types of discussions.
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PO3 Steven Sherrill
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The fundamental problem with the question is faith and religion itself. There are so many different religions each with their own concepts of god, gods, goddesses, or other divine existence. So what constitutes an argument for from one belief system could constitute an argument against in another belief system.
So the best argument for and against the existence of the divine is us. All of us. Regardless of belief human beings are small, frail, hairless, apes that have risen to become the dominant species on the planet. We have the capacity for great acts of compassion, and terrible acts of cruelty. We have the technology to completely decimate this planet, and the technology to heal.
On the for side, only a divine being with a love for this creature would allow such an inferior specimen to rise to this level of domination.
On the against side, how could a divine being choose such an inferior creature to become the dominant species on the planet.
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PO3 Steven Sherrill
PO3 Steven Sherrill
9 y
True, but mankind is the only species that uses it for those purposes. Most species only kill for food. There are some aside from man that kill for pleasure, but even they do not wipe their prey off the planet. I challenge anyone to name another species aside from man that has rendered another species extinct? Can anyone name another species that is capable of completely rendering the planet uninhabitable? Mankind is the only one.
Unfortunately, I cannot site such strong examples of kindness, but I am sure there are some out there.
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PO3 Steven Sherrill
PO3 Steven Sherrill
9 y
Cpl Robert Lowes this is one of those fun debates that can turn ugly for that very reason. You are right, the argument can be made that god granted each creature the gifts needed to survive their environment. Then the counter argument comes in that each species evolved over time to fit the environment that they live in. It is an endless cycle. it can simply be boiled down to creation Vs. evolution. Of course nothing is ever as simple as that.
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SPC Safety Technician
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It is that simple. Creation loses because it is not based on empirically verifiable observations. Evolutionary theory doesn't know or predict everything, but it can be shown to accurately describe aspects of the universe without contradicting any observations. and if it happened to be wrong, most of it would still be right, and would only require modification. all of the old evidence is still valid. but creation-theory doesn't predict anything that is testable and hasn't been shown to add to anyone's understanding of anything.
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MAJ Infantry Officer
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Evolution and the big bang theory are "testable" in what way(s)? They were observed by?
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SSG Motor Transport Operator
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There is a creator, everyone has their own opinions of religion.
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SPC Bernie Davies
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At this time there is no "proof" of God, or should I say of a god. Arguments lack evidence and substance. However, as a believing Christian, are two things. First, personal experience. Secondly, the written foundation of the Judeo-Christian belief system.

First, personal experience. In the West Texas town of Marfa there is a phenomena called the Marfa Lights. These have been recorded as occurring since at least the early 1900's. At night, off in the distance, these glowing lights rise, change color and move around. Yet, there has never been scientific proof as to the cause of them or the source. Some people say they exist and others say they do not, sort of like believers and unbelievers in religious matters. Well, we have gone out there more than once and I have seen them for myself. Seeing is believing whether or not there is proof of their existence. Same holds true for God. I have experienced Him in an objective manner. Therefore, for me, God does exist.

Secondly, the written word, commonly called the Bible. What I would offer is the completeness that it offers along with the complexity. Research a Russian mathematician name Panin who found that throughout the Bible is a complex mathematical pattern found in no other literature.
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CW3 Brigade Fecc
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Seeing is not beleiving. Never has been, never will be. Just because you believe something does not make it true. Everyone SAW lightning and they KNEW it was ZEUS. But that's not the case is it?

Critical thinking solve every problem, every single times.
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SFC Infantryman
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Chief makes a good point in that, your individual/personal "reality" does not equate to another person's "truth." However, the existence of a Transcendent "designer," does have logic as well as evidence, on it's side. One cannot logically believe that life originated in the molten primordial soup, that started out as the surface of this planet. You have to believe that we just happened by chance, to be the right distance from the sun to allow for the presence of water, and that the mysterious development of cellular life from amino acids just "happened" in a process that can no longer be observed in nature! Thus critical thinking demands that life here (the spontaneous generation of, having long since been scientifically disproven) had to have been "deposited" by either God, or aliens; take your pick!!!
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SPC Bernie Davies
SPC Bernie Davies
9 y
Chief, I have to question whether or not you are truly seeking an answer to your original question. You simply rejected my response out of hand and said "seeing is not believing." Using my example of the Marfa Lights there is no "proof" that they exist, no evidence except the multitude of people who have experienced them over a very long period of time. So, without any substantial proof they exist they still exist because they are seen. I cannot prove God one whit, but when I look at every aspect of life it cries out something is there and when I look at the Judeo-Christian concept of God it very nicely ties in with all of the "scientific" and logical arguments for there being a God. That combined with personal experience leads to recognize a Creator of the universe and sovereign Lord of it all.
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SSG Mike Angelo
SSG Mike Angelo
9 y
We all took that oath to protect and defend the Constitution. Written and approved by our forefathers, of the same, Declaration of Indendence, and the Bill of Rights...God is recognized by those who created this great nation. You got your orders, and we all were born with free will. You choose to believe the existence of God by virtue of the oath taken. To say different, wouldnt that be a broken contract to serve a great nation under God? you may need to rethink your own very existence. One thing is for sure...we have life and we have free will and this life is terminal. Be cautious in what you ask for, for it may consume you.
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CW4 Larry Curtis
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I have not scrolled down to read any responses to this question...yet. So I will ask, is this question real? Is it even pertinent in this forum? From a mere traditional standpoint, God MUST exist because the military has historically always had it's Chaplain Corps. We find an enormous amount of references to God throughout the ages of recorded secular history. One of the absolute oldest books in the world, which references God quite extensively, is still in print and world-wide publication even to this day, despite the increasing numbers of nay-sayers. In spite of their best efforts, countries who have attempted to deny the existence of God and the opportunity for people to worship God, have failed miserably in their efforts to do so. Otherwise they would have run out of people to persecute and put to death for their faith in God...but they didn't, did they? God may not be real to you personally, but God is most definitely real to people all around the world, even in those places where it is considered illegal to believe in God.
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CW3 Brigade Fecc
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Chief.....the existence of the chaplain corp is not proof of a deity. Nor is the Judeao Christian books written in premodern times proof of anything. And no, they are not the oldest. Look up Zoroastrianism. If the age of belief is proof, then everyone needs to give up modern religion and goe with that, it bearts the rest by a few thousand years of belief and is still practiced today.

Oh and a society that doesn't believe and controls anyone who does and who is doing mightily fine.....China. That's an easy one. only 6 out of 100 are religious at all. And they are moving ahead quite well without it.
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CW4 Larry Curtis
CW4 Larry Curtis
9 y
Ok, points taken, however, I did not say it was THE oldest book in the world but ONE of the oldest books in the world. My remark about the Chaplain Corps was mostly sarcasm, sort of like the one we are familiar with about "if the Army wanted you to have a wife they would have issued you one." And as long as there are 6 people out of 100 in China who believe, the country has still failed to prove there is no God. If deity was manifested in human form, or in a manner in which is easily understood and seen by humans, there would still be conflict by people who are unable to accept it...that much was proven in 33 AD. And there is another indicator for you...the very way we've been keeping track of the ages...BC/AD. There are subtle little indicators all around us but people still choose not to believe, which is their choice. BTW, I am not accustomed to being referred to as Chief by another Chief. ;)
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CW3 Brigade Fecc
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The chinese couldn't care any less about god. The point was that they don't believe, at all. And have done mightily fine without him. God is not required to progress or for the human species to exist.

Since the end of every discussion ends up with "well I believe" lets try it this way. If deity was manifested in human form, or in a manner in which is easily understood and seen by humans, there would still be conflict by people who are unable to accept it. Do you accept the Emperor of Japan as your god manifested on earth in human form? You see, he has been god incarnate well before Jesus roughly 662 years before him. They believe it to be true just as you will instantly scoff at this. Yet, you believe you are correct and base it on age. How do you rationalize this discrepancy? There are actually more books detailing the emperor of japan than the cumulative works of the time of Jesus. So who is right? How are they wrong, and your right? when they believe just the same as you? and have more time to back them up.

The calender date start is not world wide, we in the west use this style, but the jews still have their caleneder...which is set at the year 5774. oh, and the buddhist are at 2554. I would say that the start date is kind of arbitrary.

The are glaring examples of the underlying nature of the universe alla round us. But those do not equate to god.

Sorry, I still can't help myself, it's one of those things I default to until I get told otherwise. Good to meet you Larry :)
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SPC Bernie Davies
SPC Bernie Davies
9 y
Dear CW4 Curtis, I love your thinking and logic. Take care and welcome home.
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CW3 Brigade Fecc
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Okay, so my answer to this question. I fully understand that this will be posted against, and I welcome it. I allow for a differing point of view, but please don't tell me that you have a relationship with god, therefore he exists. That's not even trying to respond intelligently.

I do not believe there is a god. To argue against this creator I invoke the past 500 years of human history. Since the age of modern man began with Newton every day has seen the darkness that surrounds the campfire and the mysticism and mythology that lay beyond recede. The spotlight of critical thinking grows stronger with each day. I stand in a grave yard of gods that have come before and all perished the same way the dodo bird did. I cannot understand how a modern day human can believe so wholeheartedly in a divine beings when all of the prior divine beings have been slain and rest in shallow graves.

Yes, we as a species only understand about 5% of the universe and that's a BARELY 5%. Gravity is a problem. But it EXPLAINS 5% of the universe and with each passing moment the spotlight grows brighter. Each generation that has come has had to defend the creators absence by arguing that science doesn't know, therefore god. that's not an argument, that a cop out.

I don't actually have to prove that god exists, all I have to do is make one person look up and ask themselves if what they believe is backed up by anything other than emotion.

All of recorded human history is at our fingertips, we have the internet, learn people, LEARN. Blind faith does not allow for freedom of thought.

Think for yourself. Disregard everything I have said and everything you think you know and go out and read some books. But get some peer reviewed scientific journals, they have better internal and external validity, just a tip to save some tip.

All wrapped up with this. Every. Single. Miracle, magic trick and absolutist claim ever espoused by the mouths of mankind have been proven to be categorically, undeniably, irrefutably false. There are no absolutes, not a single claim of absolutes given by man holds sway in reality. The unstoppable march of man and science is not complete and does not explain everything YET!

-Chief
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SPC Bernie Davies
SPC Bernie Davies
9 y
Chief, let me pose something to you. You are probably close to correct in that mankind knows maybe 5% of everything. So I submit that in the 5% that you know there is no god. I would offer that possibly in someone else's 5% there is a god, or God. Until mankind knows 100% mankind cannot say there is no god, or God. My 5% of knowledge includes God, at least to my satisfaction. By that I mean that as a child someone told me that the blue thing on a stove was hot and would hurt me; but until I stuck my hand close to the flame and found out for myself I did not really know.
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CW3 Brigade Fecc
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No, the 5% is what gets wrapped up int he Standard model of physics. If you hold your cell phone out in front of you, you can thank the standard model for that. That's the 5%. The Universe as it is, every single living breathing entity, every galaxy, star, comet, rock, every single temple, church built, every geological record. All of it is in the 5%. the remainder is something we cannot directly see, but can observe it's effect on the physical world around us. And yes, there are a ton of people working on turning the spotlight on that dark corner of our ignorance. The 5% you know, is the same 5% I know, the difference is that I accept the uncomfortable parts.
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SPC Bernie Davies
SPC Bernie Davies
9 y
My view of the world of physics, and God, is that there is so much more that we do not know and that we cannot comprehend. CERN has now discovered the "God particle," the Higgs-Boson. I wonder what they will find when they build a larger collider and smash the Higgs-Boson? Astronomers say that the universe is 13 billion light years across. What will they find at 13.1 billion light years?

I suspect that when I go to heaven and meet God all of my preconceptions will fall away because He is so much more than man can conceive of. He has revealed Himself to us in terms we can understand through the Bible (and other works) as well as through revelations given to us. One side note here is that if God is all He claims to be then He is capable of getting the people who wrote the Bible to put down what He wanted put down.
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SPC Bernie Davies - Whatever is found with the next experiment will most certainly be based in reality and not from a supernatural force. It, like all previous experiments, push back the darkness of ignorance that resides in mankind's mind. It will provide a deeper insight into the nature of reality and the working of the cosmos, but not once will it show divine anything.

And if your god made sure to have the people write exactly what he wanted written down, then your god is a dark deeply disturbed entity.
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MAJ Ken Landgren
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So this is a loaded qiestion, as usual, when this question gets put out to the masses it devolves into something so personal that the original question is forgotten. This is in part due to the poor choice of words for the question. If your going to ask this question, you need to set some ground rules or each person will inevitably read into it. IMHO here are a few pointers to get this thing to where it should be instead of HS part 2.

1. Clearly defined operational definitions- what do you mean by "God" "existence" "proof" these words mean completely different things to believers and non believers.

2. Deny absolutist ideology- Any post that makes a claim being "the truth" or "the way" is shutting down any possible conversation because it does not allow for differing opinions.

3. Don't use the word Argument- Words have meanings, argument has a negative conotation and for some reason people take that as an okay to get personal. Try "thoughts on" or "best discussion points"

Just my two cents.
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What I was rerfering to by defining "god" is which god? The Judeao Christian gods? I.E. Judaism, christian, Islamic god? Or the the god/gods of Hinduism/budhism/sihkism/Greek/Roman/Nordic. I state this because the people posting/reading/commenting in all probability see this through their own lense of belief/non belief. If you don't define which god/version of/historical version it sets up the US vs. THEM scenario. Things cannot be left to interpertation or people inevitably invoke their absolutist ideology as the "right" version then come up with the best evidence that supports their version. Just my opinion, in no way do I think your not asking a very important question or doing a good thing by starting the conversation.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
LCpl Steve Wininger
9 y
CW3 (Join to see) I think it is unfair to try to specifically define a term that is so ambiguous. God has many definitions depending on who you ask. My God may be supernatural, someone else may define their God as the universe itself, while others may have several Gods they worship. Each of these Gods have different attributes, especially those that believe in multiple Gods, and each have a different explanation of how there God is "the only God."

when it comes to religion, or the lack thereof, many people have an absolutist interpretation and belief. It is literally impossible to have a universal definition of God when so many have different beliefs.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
9 y
CW3 (Join to see), thanks for the thoughts.

I intentionally did not make the question about the specific deity of a specific religion. I am a Christian, and when it comes down to it, I will personally only defend the existence of the God of the Bible, Jehovah. However, to me, the existence of God far transcends religion. I thought that the discussion would be more useful if I defined God as I did, instead of naming a deity.
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SSG(P) Instructor
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I just assume every religion has a God, and although the religion is different, the idea of God is the same.
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