Posted on Apr 12, 2015
Does God exist? Or, is there a God?
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What are the best arguments for or against the existence of God?
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
God
Religion
Atheism
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 332
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An Estimate of the Probability for Attaining the Necessary Parameters for Life Support
Parameter Probability that feature will fall in the required range
galaxy size .1
galaxy type .1
galaxy location .1
star location relative to galactic center .2
star distance from closest spiral arm .1
z-axis extremes of star's orbit .1
proximity of solar nebula to a supernova eruption .01
timing of solar nebula formation relative to supernova eruption .01
number of stars in system .2
star birth date .2
star age .4
star metallicity .05
star orbital eccentricity .1
star's distance from galactic plane .1
star mass .001
star luminosity relative to speciation .0001
star color .4
3H+ production .1
supernovae rates and locations .01
white dwarf binary types, rates, and locations .01
planetary distance from star .001
inclination of planetary orbit .5
planetary axis tilt .3
rate of change of axial tilt .01
planetary rotation period .1
rate of change in planetary rotation period .05
planetary orbit eccentricity .3
surface gravity (escape velocity) .001
tidal force .1
magnetic field .01
albedo .1
density .1
planetary crust thickness .01
oceans-to-continents ratio .2
rate of change in oceans-to-continents ratio .1
global distribution of continents .3
frequency and extent of ice ages .1
asteroid and comet collision rate .1
change in asteroid and comet collision rates .1
mass of body colliding with primordial Earth .002
timing of collision with primordial Earth .05
rate of change in asteroid/comet collision rate .1
proximity and mass of Jupiter .01
major planet eccentricities .1
major planet orbital instabilities .1
drift rate and rate change of major planets .1
atmospheric transparency .01
atmospheric pressure .1
atmospheric electric discharge rate .1
atmospheric temperature gradient .01
carbon dioxide level in atmosphere .01
oxygen level in atmosphere .01
chlorine level in atmosphere .1
iron quantity in oceans .1
tropospheric ozone quantity .01
stratospheric ozone quantity .01
mesospheric ozone quantity .01
water vapor level in atmosphere .01
oxygen-to-nitrogen ratio in atmosphere .1
quantity of greenhouse gases in atmosphere .01
frequency and extent of forest and grass fires .01
soil mineralization .1
quantity of sea-salt aerosols .1
quantity of decomposer bacteria in soil .01
quantity of mycorrhizal fungi in soil .01
quantity of nitrifying microbes in soil .01
quantity of sulfur in soil .1
quantity of sulfur in planet's core .1
tectonic activity .1
volcanic activity .1
decline in volcanic activity .1
viscosity of Earth's core at core boundaries .01
biomass to comet-infall ratio .01
regularity of cometary infall .1
dependency factors (estimate) 100,000,000,000
longevity requirements (estimate) .00001
Probability for combined occurrence of all 75 parameters = 10-99
Maximum possible number of planets in universe = 1023
Taken from Ross, H. 1998. Big Bang Refined by Fire. Reasons To Believe, Pasadena, CA.
By putting together probabilities for each of these design features occurring by chance, we can calculate the probability of the existence of a planet like Earth. This probability is 1 chance in 1099. Since there are estimated to be a maximum of only 1023 planets in the universe (10 planets/star, see note below), by chance there shouldn't be any planets capable of supporting life in the universe. Our existence suggests divine intervention and design. The design and care with which the laws of physics, the universe, our galaxy, our solar system, and the planet Earth were crafted suggests that God is caring and loving. He put in a lot of time in the design and creation of the universe so that we would have a nice place to live for such a short period of time. I could go on if necessary
Parameter Probability that feature will fall in the required range
galaxy size .1
galaxy type .1
galaxy location .1
star location relative to galactic center .2
star distance from closest spiral arm .1
z-axis extremes of star's orbit .1
proximity of solar nebula to a supernova eruption .01
timing of solar nebula formation relative to supernova eruption .01
number of stars in system .2
star birth date .2
star age .4
star metallicity .05
star orbital eccentricity .1
star's distance from galactic plane .1
star mass .001
star luminosity relative to speciation .0001
star color .4
3H+ production .1
supernovae rates and locations .01
white dwarf binary types, rates, and locations .01
planetary distance from star .001
inclination of planetary orbit .5
planetary axis tilt .3
rate of change of axial tilt .01
planetary rotation period .1
rate of change in planetary rotation period .05
planetary orbit eccentricity .3
surface gravity (escape velocity) .001
tidal force .1
magnetic field .01
albedo .1
density .1
planetary crust thickness .01
oceans-to-continents ratio .2
rate of change in oceans-to-continents ratio .1
global distribution of continents .3
frequency and extent of ice ages .1
asteroid and comet collision rate .1
change in asteroid and comet collision rates .1
mass of body colliding with primordial Earth .002
timing of collision with primordial Earth .05
rate of change in asteroid/comet collision rate .1
proximity and mass of Jupiter .01
major planet eccentricities .1
major planet orbital instabilities .1
drift rate and rate change of major planets .1
atmospheric transparency .01
atmospheric pressure .1
atmospheric electric discharge rate .1
atmospheric temperature gradient .01
carbon dioxide level in atmosphere .01
oxygen level in atmosphere .01
chlorine level in atmosphere .1
iron quantity in oceans .1
tropospheric ozone quantity .01
stratospheric ozone quantity .01
mesospheric ozone quantity .01
water vapor level in atmosphere .01
oxygen-to-nitrogen ratio in atmosphere .1
quantity of greenhouse gases in atmosphere .01
frequency and extent of forest and grass fires .01
soil mineralization .1
quantity of sea-salt aerosols .1
quantity of decomposer bacteria in soil .01
quantity of mycorrhizal fungi in soil .01
quantity of nitrifying microbes in soil .01
quantity of sulfur in soil .1
quantity of sulfur in planet's core .1
tectonic activity .1
volcanic activity .1
decline in volcanic activity .1
viscosity of Earth's core at core boundaries .01
biomass to comet-infall ratio .01
regularity of cometary infall .1
dependency factors (estimate) 100,000,000,000
longevity requirements (estimate) .00001
Probability for combined occurrence of all 75 parameters = 10-99
Maximum possible number of planets in universe = 1023
Taken from Ross, H. 1998. Big Bang Refined by Fire. Reasons To Believe, Pasadena, CA.
By putting together probabilities for each of these design features occurring by chance, we can calculate the probability of the existence of a planet like Earth. This probability is 1 chance in 1099. Since there are estimated to be a maximum of only 1023 planets in the universe (10 planets/star, see note below), by chance there shouldn't be any planets capable of supporting life in the universe. Our existence suggests divine intervention and design. The design and care with which the laws of physics, the universe, our galaxy, our solar system, and the planet Earth were crafted suggests that God is caring and loving. He put in a lot of time in the design and creation of the universe so that we would have a nice place to live for such a short period of time. I could go on if necessary
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SPC (Join to see)
SPC Nathan Freeman , I don't have any formal education in the level of math that would be required to understand the calculations that would be involved here. that being said: how do get from "This probability is 1 chance in 1099" to "by chance there shouldn't be any planets capable of supporting life in the universe"?
It seems that you just stated there is a chance.
It seems that you just stated there is a chance.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
SPC (Join to see) that was supposed to read 1:10 to the 99th power which is to say multiplying 10 by itself 99 times. 10 to the second power is 100. 10 to the third power (cubed) would be 1000. I hope that helps make sense of it.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
SPC (Join to see) a lot of that didn't paste properly. I haven't figured out how to do factorials from my phone.
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We cannot prove nor disprove the existence of a creator. Further, we cannot prove nor disprove the idea and concept that the creator desires to be worshiped. The only truly logical conclusion is to be an Agnostic. Sure -- there might be something out there, but they haven't made themselves unquestionably known to me.
Further, religion itself is far more cultural based than truly truth based. If you were born in almost any part of the Middle East -- you'd most likely be Muslim. Traditions have a lot more to do with it than any "truth."
Further, religion itself is far more cultural based than truly truth based. If you were born in almost any part of the Middle East -- you'd most likely be Muslim. Traditions have a lot more to do with it than any "truth."
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Yes God does exist. When the Holy Spirit lives in you, you know without a doubt He exists.
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Ever heard: what do you get when you have agnostic who's also dyslexic and insomniac? Someone who stays up all night pondering on the existence of a Dog.
Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)
Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)
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PO1 (Join to see)
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA, that's a good one. You know, a Twitter account should put him at ease, because he's surely following somebody on it, right?
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
PO1 (Join to see), while I am familiar with most major social media outlets, I am not on twitter. Perhaps if I were, it would not have taken me a moment to get that play on words.
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PO1 (Join to see)
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA, I don't do Twitter either. I just know that you can 'follow' people on it, go figure what that means. And I have life other than 'following' people. Except maybe on Rallypoint. But that's as far as I'd go
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PO1 (Join to see)
TSgt Hunter Logan, Kanye West said a few years back, 'George Bush hates all black people' next to Mike Myers on national TV, remember? And whom did he end up marrying?
You should've told her that story following by, 'God have mercy on your soul. May he bless you with a white man' just for kicks.
You should've told her that story following by, 'God have mercy on your soul. May he bless you with a white man' just for kicks.
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Perhaps the more important question - no matter what you do or don't believe as an individual, do you have the patience and discipline to tolerate the beliefs of others as a leader?
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SSG Larry Penn
I did have the patience and tolerance concerning what the soldiers under my supervision believed. One other word described my dealing with different beliefs was/is the word, non-judgmental. As long as they performed their duties, all were treated the same. No special treatment to the ones that believed as I did.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
1LT(P) (Join to see), I believe I do have those traits, and I got to practice them a bit in the discussions of my OP.
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PO3 (Join to see)
Sir, wouldn't that be a rather pointless, as well as boring conversation topic? I don't imagine many people discussing whether or not they treat others properly.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I never said anything spontaneous happens. Look just because you can't fathom something doesn't automatically make God the answer. Earth is billions of years old- an amount of time no man can possibly imagine. Life never just "POOF" and appeared. So you're right about that! That doesn't mean God made it happen! The right solution is to dig deeper and figure it out!!! You take into account the amount of time it takes and only then it becomes possible. It becomes viable that eventually things become more intricate, over the course of MILLIONS and BILLIONS of years! You guys are stuck on this notion that atheists think one day everything magically appears on its own when in reality it is YOU who thinks magic (excuse me, miracles) had anything to do with it. The problem is all of you just want instant satisfaction. It's too hard for you to accept that there are things we just don't know or understand yet and possibly never will during your life time. Or you're afraid that what you've dedicated so much faith in might be made up. Bottom line is that It's OKAY to not know everything! It's like you have this closed door. It's safe for you to just say "God did it"
And look I don't chose to believe or not believe in a god. I don't even think the choice is a relevant decision that needs to be made. It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't apply. You don't hear anybody asking wether or not you believe in Zeus anymore do you? Because it's ridiculous to ask in the first place.
And look I don't chose to believe or not believe in a god. I don't even think the choice is a relevant decision that needs to be made. It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't apply. You don't hear anybody asking wether or not you believe in Zeus anymore do you? Because it's ridiculous to ask in the first place.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Man writes the laws of physics. Not God! And changes to them have been made time and time again based on a better understanding! It's an going process. explain to me why a god had to sit down and make those laws? And further, how did he know what to make them? Are there laws of physics that God is bound by? And if everything has a beginning when did God begin to exist?
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SPC (Join to see)
Cpl Ronald Page Another question I would ask is "How would one expect the universe to operate if there weren't a god?" Most people seem to think this bolster belief in the supernatural somehow. But to me, there's no good reason to think that hypothetical place would be any different than this one.
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http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/opinion/sunday/t-m-luhrmann-faith-vs-facts.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0&referrer=
I don't think we'll ever be able to answer that question considering that people make claims about the nature of thier god(s) that are not able to be scientifically studied or tested. But we can say with more and more confidence is that people are willing to suspend or alter certain aspects of their reasoning/decision making when they're talking and thinking about God. I linked a nice little op-Ed piece that talks about it.
If you want to learn more about our brains, history and cultural landscape interacts with religious belief and expression check out this great article by two big researchers in cognitive and behavioral sciences (link to article and citation below). http://jeannicod.ccsd.cnrs.fr/file/index/docid/53636/filename/ijn_00000596_02.pdf
Atran, S., & Norenzayan, A. (2004). Religion's evolutionary landscape: Counterintuition, commitment, compassion, communion. Behavioral and brain sciences, 27(06), 713-730.
I don't think we'll ever be able to answer that question considering that people make claims about the nature of thier god(s) that are not able to be scientifically studied or tested. But we can say with more and more confidence is that people are willing to suspend or alter certain aspects of their reasoning/decision making when they're talking and thinking about God. I linked a nice little op-Ed piece that talks about it.
If you want to learn more about our brains, history and cultural landscape interacts with religious belief and expression check out this great article by two big researchers in cognitive and behavioral sciences (link to article and citation below). http://jeannicod.ccsd.cnrs.fr/file/index/docid/53636/filename/ijn_00000596_02.pdf
Atran, S., & Norenzayan, A. (2004). Religion's evolutionary landscape: Counterintuition, commitment, compassion, communion. Behavioral and brain sciences, 27(06), 713-730.
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The existence of anything is proof of an omnipotent God (the ability to defy the first law of thermodynamics by adding energy in an isolated system proves omnipotence). If an omnipotent God created everything, then he would know what He created (omniscience). If He created it, then He makes the rules; and hence is omnibenevolent since He determines goodness. If not bound by the laws of the physical universe He created (in direct violation of the first law of thermodynamics-- matter and/or energy cannot be created or destroyed); there is no reason to believe He would be bound by the second (increase in the sum of entropies. Everything tends toward disorder, and energy tends toward dissipation) hence eternal and extant.
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SPC (Join to see)
well, what i think i was getting at is the laws of thermodynamics described actually are empirical observations. He claims that these laws can be 'broken', when there is no evidence to support this claim, and everything observed this far to indicate he's incorrect.
not to mention, I make no claims. I'm asking how/why/what. burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim.
as to my claim that he ignores empirical observation, shall I pick out a study illustrating application of the laws of thermodynamics? your call.
SPC Nathan Freeman MAJ Carl Ballinger
not to mention, I make no claims. I'm asking how/why/what. burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim.
as to my claim that he ignores empirical observation, shall I pick out a study illustrating application of the laws of thermodynamics? your call.
SPC Nathan Freeman MAJ Carl Ballinger
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PO3 (Join to see)
If the first law (can't be created or destroyed) has never been broken by anyone or anything, where did matter and energy originate?
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SPC (Join to see)
PO3 (Join to see) I don't know. I don't know what accounts for the existence of virtual particles, either.
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I don't believe any gods exist. Just look at all the death and destruction in the world today. Most of it in the name of a god or prophet. This topic could be endlessly debated and all I know is that the world would be a better place without religion.
http://www.atheist-meme.com/imagine-john-lennon-cartoon---atheist-meme.php
http://www.atheist-meme.com/imagine-john-lennon-cartoon---atheist-meme.php
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1LT (Join to see)
Mao, Stalin, and Hitler were all atheists their death counts respectively are 78 million, 23 million, and 17 million. It has nothing to do with religion! People are intrinsically naturally evil. It is much easier to do wrong than good. It takes much more mental capacity to continually do right. Religion or lack of religion doesn't cause wars or heartache people do.
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SFC (Join to see)
These dictators may have been raised in religious homes or schools, but obviously rejected those teachings later in life. Otherwise you are suggesting the President is Moslem, despite what he now says he believes...
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PV2 Violet Case
I asked that same question when the nurse brought my son into my arms in a blue baby colored blanket and his little lips were all puffed up and he was born still dead. I had carried him 5 1/2 months. No one could understand then why he died I did not drink or do drugs not even prescribed one back then. Then I had a baby born with areas not fully developed. She deals with cancer today and seizures. But then I started talking to God about it and through out my life I was not a full Christian because of these kinds of things that would cause me doubt. But there is a purpose for all things great and small. God allows the baby to be conceived but it is up to the parent to care for that child. Some people just don't get it. They allow sex to be the big deal. After my daughter was born I was 32 still at an age to have more children but I decided at that moment when the doctor told me from my female trouble that more could happen like that so it was up to me did I want to be a mother and keep having babies and watch them die or be deformed. It I new in that place that having a child would do this to them I would not put sex before that babies life. God allows us to make our choices and these people watch their children die day after day but will not refrain from the cause. Many of our people went and told them too about the outcome and different ways to stop it. Now God sent the knowledge and the people choose to ignore it. How is that his fault then it is the parents. I have a complete hsytorectomy because I could never go threw it again. I did so want a son but love and pain for the son I lost was not worth seeing or trying again. People make their own choices to do what is right or wrong and if a child is born who can't tell it is up to the parent to teach them. I Know this is sad I think of my little son every time I see this stuff but then I also at the same time no the parents choose to keep doing it. I have also often asked God why I was in Ft McClellan to have this happen to me and my family. But at the same time I always find that there was a purpose. I pray that he use me if he wishes to test other people and their Christianity too. On a grave stone the day we are born - date die the little slash is the most important it represents our lives between and what we do in it. That is what God looks at for your spiritual life in eternity. I would rather live my life to the best I can with that slash and do it with all my heart, no body is perfect and God does no this. But would you rather live a life of disbelief and find out in the end when it is too late that there is a judge and a final place.
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SSgt (Join to see)
>>>If there is no God, then there's nothing morally wrong with murdering 11 million people or starving children to death.
--->In the context of an absolute morality that applies to everyone, you're right, because there is no such morality. Most people, however, have a set of personal ethics that maintain it is morally wrong to them.
If you require a god either bribing you with heaven or threatening you with hell, in order to avoid committing horrible crimes against people, then you are the one who is immoral.
--->In the context of an absolute morality that applies to everyone, you're right, because there is no such morality. Most people, however, have a set of personal ethics that maintain it is morally wrong to them.
If you require a god either bribing you with heaven or threatening you with hell, in order to avoid committing horrible crimes against people, then you are the one who is immoral.
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SSgt (Join to see)
>>>But there is a purpose for all things great and small.
--->So in your view, god intentionally allows innocent children to suffer horribly, even though he can do something to stop it, he simply refuses because it's part of his plan. If that were true then I wouldn't want anything to do with such a sick SOB even if he did exist.
--->So in your view, god intentionally allows innocent children to suffer horribly, even though he can do something to stop it, he simply refuses because it's part of his plan. If that were true then I wouldn't want anything to do with such a sick SOB even if he did exist.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
I'm neither being bribed with heaven, nor threatened with hell. My position in heaven is irrevocably secured. I do good to please by best Friend, and avoid evil to avoid saddening Him.
As you admitted, without God, there is truly no such thing as a "horrible crime."
You are disgusted with God, because He fails to fulfill your expectation of making the world a perfect place.
As you admitted, without God, there is truly no such thing as a "horrible crime."
You are disgusted with God, because He fails to fulfill your expectation of making the world a perfect place.
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