Posted on Apr 12, 2015
Does God exist? Or, is there a God?
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What are the best arguments for or against the existence of God?
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
God
Religion
Atheism
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 332
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well for those who claim to be atheist or agnostic - the only thing to be said at your funeral will be "All dressed up, and no place to go!!"
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SPC (Join to see)
"Don't he look pretty folks! He was an atheist, so all the good things he done don't matter and no matter how much we love him, we know he's going to feel endless pain and suffering by the grace of our lord! Throw him in the ground or where-ever and let's get to thanking god for . . . uh. . .
Everything!"
:) that felt good.
Everything!"
:) that felt good.
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One of the best Arguements a For God comes from StThomas Aquinas in his Summa Theological. You can download a free kindle version. Also another great argument come from C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity. Keep in mind C.S. Lewis started out as an atheist. Of course those are the best ones I have outside of Scripture itself.
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the best evidence is the incalculable odds that all things perfectly came together to form the ecosystem so that if all of any one component like say spiders were to die out the whole ecosystem collapses. That and the fact that we, humans are symbiotic creatures depending on the millions of organisms that live in and on our bodies.Even our digestion is done with the aid of bacteria that we could not see or know about until the 18th century. so how did cells know how to form,or how did these complex chemical processes get figured out by mindless single cell organisms? it didn’t. I believe in a god who is not an old man with grey hair, but a spirit who seeks those who will seek him in spirit. science calls him electromotive force.His name is YAHWEH, if you study what electromotive force does and how it holds all matter together you will see that he truly lives and makes all that we know exist.
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CW3 (Join to see)
The number isn't incalcuable, that's why odds of it coming together have been calculated. Just because the number seems REALLY big doesn't mean it can't happen.
To answer your questions, all of those things that are the cosystem/cells/organisms hd millions of years of evolution to get things to their current state. They are also continuing to evolve as speak-have you heard of ebola lately- so just because you don't want o understnad or refuse to agree with the reproducable, verifiable, irrefutable evidence laid bare to you, does not mean it isn't true. It just means you have an issue with reality not fitting your belief system.
To answer your questions, all of those things that are the cosystem/cells/organisms hd millions of years of evolution to get things to their current state. They are also continuing to evolve as speak-have you heard of ebola lately- so just because you don't want o understnad or refuse to agree with the reproducable, verifiable, irrefutable evidence laid bare to you, does not mean it isn't true. It just means you have an issue with reality not fitting your belief system.
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I did not read all the comments, but I'll give my two cents:
The OP asked about the best arguments for and against the existence of God, but as I see it, the burden of "proof" lies with the person making the positive claim, i.e. that there IS a God.
Personally, the best argument I've heard against the existence of God is more witty and philosophical than it is science-based (although it stems from a scientific viewpoint regarding evolution). Christopher Hitchens once said:
"Let's say that the consensus is that our species, being the higher primates, Homo Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, maybe more. Francis Collins says maybe 100,000. Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter-of-a-million. I'll take 100,000. In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years.
Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks 'That's enough of that. It's time to intervene,' and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East."
The OP asked about the best arguments for and against the existence of God, but as I see it, the burden of "proof" lies with the person making the positive claim, i.e. that there IS a God.
Personally, the best argument I've heard against the existence of God is more witty and philosophical than it is science-based (although it stems from a scientific viewpoint regarding evolution). Christopher Hitchens once said:
"Let's say that the consensus is that our species, being the higher primates, Homo Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, maybe more. Francis Collins says maybe 100,000. Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter-of-a-million. I'll take 100,000. In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years.
Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks 'That's enough of that. It's time to intervene,' and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East."
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i think the best arguments are those the Bible itself uses: 1) the argument from design (Rom. 1:19-20) and 2) evidential arguments (the Bible speaks of witnesses of the Resurrection and other miracles, and then the evidence of the historicity, accuracy and archaeological evidence which makes the Bible the most verified ancient document of all time. I make those choice on the basis of my own experience, the Word of God and my background as an evidential apologist.
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SPC (Join to see)
That excuse only works on AnswersInGenesis, and not really credible any further than that.
Oh, i get it. You don't like tectonic theory. It explains rather well how mountains are lifted into the air, and how canyons can form. Mountains rise from the depths of the oceans and in the middle of seemingly solid land masses. If you'd like specific references and studies that indicate this, I'll gather them for you if you like.
It's funny, the same scientific observations and theories that explain the event regarding the eruption of Mt. Saint Helens are ignored when they indicate you're mistaken, but you're quick to point to it when it seems to support your hypothesis.
SFC (Join to see)
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-crustal-plates-move-plate-tectonics.html
Oh, i get it. You don't like tectonic theory. It explains rather well how mountains are lifted into the air, and how canyons can form. Mountains rise from the depths of the oceans and in the middle of seemingly solid land masses. If you'd like specific references and studies that indicate this, I'll gather them for you if you like.
It's funny, the same scientific observations and theories that explain the event regarding the eruption of Mt. Saint Helens are ignored when they indicate you're mistaken, but you're quick to point to it when it seems to support your hypothesis.
SFC (Join to see)
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-crustal-plates-move-plate-tectonics.html
How Crustal Plates Move: Plate Tectonics - For Dummies
Plate tectonics is the unifying theory of geology. This theory explains how crustal plates move around the surface of the earth, and it allows geologists to find ...
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LTC Fred Wiske
I'm amazed SPC Kyle K., how you just make statements without any evidence to back it up... as if your dissing AnswersInGenesis or any other source of information somehow means that it is unreliable to disproven "just because you say so..." Absurd! Tectonic theory is not incompatible with the Genesis account of creation anyway (nor are some aspects of the Big Bang theory either)... This goes the way of so many other stupid discussions (and yes, they do become stupid!), because any good evidence offered (and i have been a part of many of these and excellent evidence is offered!), and it is simply dismissed by people like you, not because it is NOT good evidence, but because you simply choose to dismiss it, with no justification or alternate explanation whatsoever. To use the words of the members of Shark Tank.. "so for that reason, I'm out..." It's a waste of my time and too much investment to be worth it... Pearls before swine as it were...
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SPC (Join to see)
LTC Fred Wiske You're right to question me further, sir.
I didn't dismiss it. I laid out clearly why I believe he is mistaken. Tectonic theory, the prevailing scientific model for understanding the formation of the continents, explains quite clearly how seabeds become mountains. It is also observed currently in island formation.
And just because a calamity CAN cause massive changes in geographical landscape, doesn't invalidate what is known about the grand canyon. He is not specific how this volcano explains the formation of the grand canyon, so I see no need to take it any further, because he's essentially pointed at an event and said "See? Gawd!!!"
I've enjoyed your input thus far. Sorry to see you go. But I believe you're mistaken that I "just make statements without any evidence to back it up". If you don't like the article I provided, then the wikipedia article on the subject covers things very well, with most of the references being actual research papers that have been peer-reviewed.
If you're upset that I'm not a geologist, well, okay then.
SFC (Join to see)
I didn't dismiss it. I laid out clearly why I believe he is mistaken. Tectonic theory, the prevailing scientific model for understanding the formation of the continents, explains quite clearly how seabeds become mountains. It is also observed currently in island formation.
And just because a calamity CAN cause massive changes in geographical landscape, doesn't invalidate what is known about the grand canyon. He is not specific how this volcano explains the formation of the grand canyon, so I see no need to take it any further, because he's essentially pointed at an event and said "See? Gawd!!!"
I've enjoyed your input thus far. Sorry to see you go. But I believe you're mistaken that I "just make statements without any evidence to back it up". If you don't like the article I provided, then the wikipedia article on the subject covers things very well, with most of the references being actual research papers that have been peer-reviewed.
If you're upset that I'm not a geologist, well, okay then.
SFC (Join to see)
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SFC (Join to see)
Sea shells at the highest altitudes what not survive the hypothetical process of plate tectonics driving and grinding stone for epochs and eons, up from the ocean floor. Completely fails the common sense test...
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From a military stand point. Look at how much organization, training and strategy it takes liberate a country from a oppressive leader or ideology. Yet one simple "experience of Grace" in the heart of a person can set them free from any vice they struggled with.
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CW3 (Join to see)
how exactly does that work? Can you show me how someone is "freed" from a vice they struggled with? I would say that a person chose to stop doing whatever it was they realized was self destructive.
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SGT Anthony Rossi
I personaly was delivered from using profane language in one miraculous moment. It was such a drastic transformation that I had to learn how to speak all over again. God literally took cursing out of my mouth in one night.
He also completely took the desire for alcohol away from me in the same moment! Thanks for asking.
He also completely took the desire for alcohol away from me in the same moment! Thanks for asking.
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CW3 (Join to see)
So that didn't answer my question. how exactly did "god" do that? You would obviously have proof that there was some sort of structural change in your brain in the area responsibile for speech.
The word "literally" gets literally used literally too much. It means somethign when you say literally. Desires, vocabulary, that is part of your brain. What happens in your head is related to your personality and there is a field of science for that, it's called psychology.
I am going to go on a limb here and say that god didn't take away desires or your love of curse words. that one belongs to you for making better life decisions.
The word "literally" gets literally used literally too much. It means somethign when you say literally. Desires, vocabulary, that is part of your brain. What happens in your head is related to your personality and there is a field of science for that, it's called psychology.
I am going to go on a limb here and say that god didn't take away desires or your love of curse words. that one belongs to you for making better life decisions.
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SGT Anthony Rossi
Sorry for the late response. I suppose one could look for a scientific evidence to confirm such miraculous events. For many of us that have experienced a work of "grace" in our lives we just simply know when it was an act of discipline or, an act of divine influence. The word "grace" is defined, "A divine influence upon the heart, and it's reflection in the life." The effect is so dramatic it's impossible to attribute it's cause to anything but divine. Jesus explained it this way, John chapter 3, verse 8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." The evidence is found in the millions of transformed lives over the past 2000+ years.
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I can't say there isn't a God, because there is no way of proving it. However, the more educated I become, the more I lose faith that there is one.
I use to be a very strong believer, then I started reading facts. I honestly wish I could still have the blissful hope that there is something out there... but that's not me anymore.
I use to be a very strong believer, then I started reading facts. I honestly wish I could still have the blissful hope that there is something out there... but that's not me anymore.
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SPC (Join to see)
SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales Your comment struck a chord with me. The events and experiences that led me to my lack of religion are probably quite similar. But reading your comment helped me realize that if OP had asked a different, more generally spiritual question, my participation in this forum would have been very different. Every once in a while, I marvel at the universe as I perceive and understand it, and wonder about the things I don't perceive or understand.
Sometimes I feel like religion has co-opted segments of our language. I would like to call these moments transcendent, or even spiritual. The need for a supernatural realm doesn't exist for me to appreciate what is going on around me. Sometimes I wish I had a better indication there was "more", too. But most of the time I realize what we know is there is pretty awesome too. Those that lack a particular religion or any religion can easily become self-loathing given many of the pressures that exist parts of our culture.
OP's god probably doesn't exist because the very idea of it is logically inconsistent. And that's okay :) The universe is still pretty awesome.
Sometimes I feel like religion has co-opted segments of our language. I would like to call these moments transcendent, or even spiritual. The need for a supernatural realm doesn't exist for me to appreciate what is going on around me. Sometimes I wish I had a better indication there was "more", too. But most of the time I realize what we know is there is pretty awesome too. Those that lack a particular religion or any religion can easily become self-loathing given many of the pressures that exist parts of our culture.
OP's god probably doesn't exist because the very idea of it is logically inconsistent. And that's okay :) The universe is still pretty awesome.
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If you are not a Christian that does not make you a bad or evil person. It just means you chose not to be a Christian. The holy sprit came into my heart when I was 12 years old. He is still there 58 years later. He is just as real now as he was then. You either believe or you don't,it's up to you. I'm happy with my life,I hope you are happy with yours.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Actually, the bible does say that we are evil and we all go to hell simply for not believing.
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My personal opinion is no. The only difference between me and most posters is that I am 100% atheist and most of you are 99%..as you reject all the other gods throughout history prior to monotheism. The existence of the universe and human beings is not proof of God but proof that we exist. However, religion and the belief is simply not provable nor unprovable but a belief. And if your belief gets you through your day then run with it.
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SPC (Join to see)
CPL Clark Stinson I actually disagree. Some gods can be disproved or shown to not exist as described by people. An example would be if a person believed a god throws lightning bolts. If it is found that lightning bolts are caused by static electricity and not a god, than the god that throws lightning bolts does not exist, at least as described. A god that is poorly defined or understood may never be indicated to exist or not exist. The more attributes that are assigned to a supernatural force, the more likely it seems that that force doesn't actually exist as described.
as far OP's god, it's logically inconsistent with itself (e.g. omniscient v. omnipotent paradox). So evidence would be required before i think anyone should claim to know that god exists.
That's why an agnostic atheist like myself has nothing to say to deists, but can seemingly go on-and-on about the judeo-christian god.
as far OP's god, it's logically inconsistent with itself (e.g. omniscient v. omnipotent paradox). So evidence would be required before i think anyone should claim to know that god exists.
That's why an agnostic atheist like myself has nothing to say to deists, but can seemingly go on-and-on about the judeo-christian god.
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