Posted on May 1, 2017
Does the job of an officer really require a degree (excluding professional officers; Doctors, Nurses, Engineers, lawyers, etc..)?
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I'm about to graduate with my BS in Public Health this year. During my time in the Army, I observed my officers duties (Layouts, Writing Memo's/Power Points, guest starring on patrol, etc..) seem like they can be done without a college degree. (Excluding professionals). What part of officer training requires a degree? I believe we could send NCO's to OCS and they would do just fine. Do you?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 19
I think you got a narrow view of what being an officer is all about. So what is that formula to Leonidas like company grade leadership? Was there a correlation between degrees and specific branches? I believe the degree requirement for commissioning is not tied directly to a success/failure of platoon leaders. The services need officers. Officers are needed to lead the services from the tactical to operational to strategic levels. The military skills and decision making are grown in house. The degree is not a certification in that regard, it is a box check to get into a commissioning program. A bachelors degree, codified by law, became the universally accepted standard. It was selected for many reasons. I believe among them are: you can stick to something for four plus years; you can apply intellectual rigor to problems; you have the capability to learn a foreign body of knowledge and be conversant in it; the service would acquire someone with your skill set to be repurposed for needs of the service later on. I was branched Ordnance (maintenance) with my Civil Engineering degree that the Army paid for (75% anyway) with the intent of branching me Combat Engineer. Couple truths. The majority of engineering at company grade, isn't. It is mobility, counter mobility, survivability...not designing things. In those days, CSS got the left overs from combat arms. My semesters of Steel Design, Intro to Design, project management, and Mechanics of Materials made me capable of understanding very technical welding and machining issues my Allied Trades shop was dealing with when I was a platoon leader and a shop officer. Growing up as the son of a mechanic helped me understand automotive-armament technical issues as a platoon leader and shop officer. Much later my civil engineering background helped me understand and prioritize public works projects and tangle with the EPA as a Garrison Commander. Nothing prepared me to get scuffed up by my first Troop Commander, counsel my Platoon Sergeant, lead non-cadets for the first time, investigate my first FLIPL, deal with a couple shady NCOs, deal with a couple inflexible seniors, handle a few spouses from hell, deal with death, command a world wide organization etc. nothing would have. What made that all work, was the preparation I recieved from parents that held me to standards; teachers that cared about me; early leadership opportunities as an adolescent (scouting, JROTC, sports, etc); development in my commissioning source by officers and NCOs; development by all ranks as an Officer ( I learn from everyone- good and bad); hard work; and being myself, not trying to be something I am not. If you are not Audie Murphy (alThough he was not well liked either) , you should not try to be him. I am not a proponent for thou must be an NCO first mentality. I have seen many that are incredible officers. I have seen some not make the transition and try to be O3 squad leaders and alienate their NCOs. You have to have a jumping off point to allow lateral entry of junior leaders you will then need to grow to fit the senior roles in the organization both in command and staff. So how do you filter out 20 somethings that you need to exploit in less than ten years, but are depending on fully harvesting the potential of in their early 40s before they retire? In a 20 year career, I spent 5 of those commanding organizations. The other 15 were staff jobs, making the Army keep rolling along. Real staff work, not ppt jackassery, coordinating, fixing problems, and breaking down barriers is what you have to apply intellectual rigor to, along with persistence, your influence, and experience to. So again, the degree is an entry requirement, not the sum total of expectation.
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History proves you are correct, just look at the large number of Officers that were given commissions during The Korean War! Any good NCO can perform the duties oh a company Grade officer. Degrees are required for the same reason as Medical Schools requiring "would be students" to have done very well on their SAT. They, as a group, have a much better chance of going all the way through medical school. The fact that a student has applied himself or herself to obtaining a degree shows they have the determination to make it through the mirad of officer schools! Believe me, The War College is not for Undergraduates!
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Who forced you to earn your degree? Who stood over you and made you go to class, or study for exams? Probably no one. There are no major consequences if you don't do those things-you just won't earn your degree. Its entirely up to the individual, and that was the value I derived from it. Earning a degree shows the military that you have enough maturity, self-discipline, and motivation to follow through on a long-term plan without someone forcing you.
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SGT Suraj Dave
Sir, I respectfully disagree. You believe non commissioned officers are not capable of being responsible? With all due respect, the day an officer enters the military, he/she is entitled to respect and entitled to lead. Non Commissioned officers must earn the respect with their rank, and earn the right to lead. All of us began at the bottom, our service began as privates.
There is only one difference between 23 year old SGT Dave in 2013 and 26 year old college senior Suraj Dave. That's the ability to write a lab report. I'm sure weather I went to OCS as a 23 year old Sergeant, or in this December as a Penn State graduate, my Memo's and Power Point presentations would be the same.
Again, no disrespect sir, just sharing my opinion. Thank you for your service.
There is only one difference between 23 year old SGT Dave in 2013 and 26 year old college senior Suraj Dave. That's the ability to write a lab report. I'm sure weather I went to OCS as a 23 year old Sergeant, or in this December as a Penn State graduate, my Memo's and Power Point presentations would be the same.
Again, no disrespect sir, just sharing my opinion. Thank you for your service.
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LTC Lewis Cox
Absolutely! Right on point! They must stay professional or sometimes those hard earned stripes will go away! The old saying" "The NCOs are the backbone of the Army". Is just as true today as it was in George Washington's day. Any new LT, no mater how he was commissioned, better learn that his best sourse of learning and performing his job is to seek the advice of his NCO's!!!
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SGT Suraj Dave
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff The point of the age comment, wasn't really about age itself. It was more to prove that having a degree now wouldn't make me any better off an OCS candidate than when I was in the Army SGT, seeing as OCS isn't an academic program.
As per the respect comment, Your butter bar is entitled to respect the day he shows up. This is why you salute him. This is also why you get UCMJ for disrespecting him. When you disrespect a private, nothing really happens. He is a private. The day the butter bar shows up, he is entitled to a leadership role and will rotate out of them every couple months. (Platoon leader now, S3 OIC in a couple months, Company XO by next year probably, etc...). This is compared to your enlisted soldier, who had to start out picking up trash, doing yard work, and training/deploying for a couple years to demonstrate competence before ever having the opportunity to lead.
As per the respect comment, Your butter bar is entitled to respect the day he shows up. This is why you salute him. This is also why you get UCMJ for disrespecting him. When you disrespect a private, nothing really happens. He is a private. The day the butter bar shows up, he is entitled to a leadership role and will rotate out of them every couple months. (Platoon leader now, S3 OIC in a couple months, Company XO by next year probably, etc...). This is compared to your enlisted soldier, who had to start out picking up trash, doing yard work, and training/deploying for a couple years to demonstrate competence before ever having the opportunity to lead.
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Sarge, I completely agree with you. However, the only problem I see, is that the current bar set, to become an NCO, is quite low. Then again, the current bar to become an officer, other then the degree requirement, is not much higher.
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LTC Lewis Cox
I differ with you! Getting a degree sets a Pretty high bar!
Three of my first company commanders were given direct commissions from NCOs to company Grade officers in Korea. They made great Company Grade Officers, when they were told get a degree so you can be promoted into Field Grade
positions many just reverted to their former NCO rank. But the best of them understood and immediately began working toward that degree! My last three assignments were as adjutants and all three of the Sargeants Majors sitting right beside me had college degrees!
Three of my first company commanders were given direct commissions from NCOs to company Grade officers in Korea. They made great Company Grade Officers, when they were told get a degree so you can be promoted into Field Grade
positions many just reverted to their former NCO rank. But the best of them understood and immediately began working toward that degree! My last three assignments were as adjutants and all three of the Sargeants Majors sitting right beside me had college degrees!
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SGT Dave Tracy
LTC Lewis Cox - You are correct about having a degree being a high bar in general. Those who never attained one, I wouldn't expect to understand what goes into it and what one gets out of it. And as you implied through your personal experience, I believe I read somewhere that most upper enlisted have degrees as well; it's not just officers. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but the military has long ago decided that--perhaps with certain exceptions--that one basic requirement for commission would be degree attainment. That's how it is.
I would however, say that there are solid enlisted side soldiers who could fulfill officer rolls regardless of their level of formal education level. Why they would want to, I don't know, but to each their own. It's like going from being the rock star to the band manager! LOL!
I would however, say that there are solid enlisted side soldiers who could fulfill officer rolls regardless of their level of formal education level. Why they would want to, I don't know, but to each their own. It's like going from being the rock star to the band manager! LOL!
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SGT Suraj Dave
I don't think simply having a degree is setting a high bar... Maybe for STEM degrees.... but anyone, and I mean anyone, can go get a liberal arts, humanities or art bachelors degree.
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Having a degree is simply a requirement. Just like you need 5 jumps at airborne school to get your wings. Does the guy who jumped 4 times not know how to do it a 5th time? Doesn't matter. Someone at some point said you needed 5 jumps. End of story. Someone else at another time said officers require degrees. That's just how it works. Having a degree doesn't make you any better of an officer, just like having a 300 APFT score doesn't make you a good squad leader.
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The same question could be posed for many civilian positions. A Bachelor's degree has just become a commonly accepted "ticket" throughout our culture that is believed to indicate the ability to reason and interpret requirements as well as possessing a certain level of ability to interact effectively with a wide range of personalities. I noted the Code citation buy LTC Mackey was written circa 1995. Personally, I was commissioned through an enlisted commissioning program which allowed me to attend OCS (a group excepted from the O-3 restriction in the code). About a year after I made Captain (O-3), I received a letter from the CMC advising me that my record had been reviewed and it was noted I lacked a degree. I was pointedly advised, that while I could possibly be promoted to Major because of my war record, I should consider myself as limited to Major if I failed to get a degree. The symbolism of the degree becomes obvious if you consider how it is regarded when applying for a position, including commissioned status. Most employers care less if you have a degree in English, Psychology or Quantum Physics. Except for those "professional" positions cited by Sgt Dave, any old degree will do and, unless it is a degree from an Ivy League or other high profile school, most employers could care less where you got the degree. There are always a few exceptions where a HS graduate has worked hard and earned what would normally be considered a position reserved for the college graduate, but a degree is an indicator that opens doors. Does it make sense all the time, probably not, but it is just the way it is.
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I was a second lieutenant in 1996 the Battalion executive officer in military police in the California guard was working on her associate's degree. I also know a full bird colonel from the Vietnam War era and he was one of the very very few captains that were retained when the Army switched over to an all-volunteer force in 1973. The only determinant was a bachelor's degree. If you did not have it, you were separated from service.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I do believe they were also offered the choice of reverting to the pay grade they held at promotion to officer grade if they wanted to stay.
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LTC Stephen Conway
CMDCM Gene Treants - that's true it did happen in the late fifties and it did happen right after the Vietnam War. Most of those who were captains 03 but the majority of them were Specialist or below and only a handful were Sergeants. They got a $15,000 rif payment if they were forced out.
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Suspended Profile
SGT Suraj Dave - The US Navy had a "Commissioning from the Ranks" program at one time for Chief Warrant Officers and Limited Duty Officers - without four Year degrees - but any such officers were strictly limited in career advancement opportunities. I am not sure - but I believe The US Army and US Air Force require a four year regionally accredited degree for regular officer appointments. The reserve components were a bit more lenient - you must be college senior - and graduate before receiving a regular commission, Warmest Regards, Sandy :)
CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
If you call strictly limited as being restricted to no more than raising to Navy Captain, then yes.
Two points 1LT Sandy Annala: 1. You are correct the Navy had and still has the LOD and Warrant Officer Programs and neither requires a Collage Degree. They are Technical Managers in Specialty Fields from Electronics to Engineering and Deck Department areas. Every Rating in the Navy may have different needs for these Warrant officers and Limited Duty Officers (Ensign (O-1 to Captain(O-6)) They provide the primary manpower source for technically specific billets not best suited for traditional Unrestricted Line, Restricted Line or Staff Corps career path Officers.
Point 2 I do not believe that is the question SGT Suraj Dave was really asking. When I asked the same question early in my career I was told that the reason Naval Officers needed College Degrees was to show that they could complete something. Think about it; today's HS Graduates, well at least in 1964, had so much more education then any collage graduate up to and including the period of WWII, except for Technical Education. Liberal Arts Degrees are still not really what the Navy is looking for when it comes to the Unrestricted Line.
Two points 1LT Sandy Annala: 1. You are correct the Navy had and still has the LOD and Warrant Officer Programs and neither requires a Collage Degree. They are Technical Managers in Specialty Fields from Electronics to Engineering and Deck Department areas. Every Rating in the Navy may have different needs for these Warrant officers and Limited Duty Officers (Ensign (O-1 to Captain(O-6)) They provide the primary manpower source for technically specific billets not best suited for traditional Unrestricted Line, Restricted Line or Staff Corps career path Officers.
Point 2 I do not believe that is the question SGT Suraj Dave was really asking. When I asked the same question early in my career I was told that the reason Naval Officers needed College Degrees was to show that they could complete something. Think about it; today's HS Graduates, well at least in 1964, had so much more education then any collage graduate up to and including the period of WWII, except for Technical Education. Liberal Arts Degrees are still not really what the Navy is looking for when it comes to the Unrestricted Line.
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LTC Jason Mackay
It's a statuatory requirement to be promoted to O3. As a result, when the channel narrows they just use it as a discriminator. Of course ROTC is built around the degree program.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/12205
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/12205
10 U.S. Code § 12205 - Commissioned officers: appointment; educational requirement
Provisions similar to those in this section were contained in Pub. L. 102–190, div. A, title V, §523, Dec. 5, 1991, 105 Stat. 1363, which was set out as a note under section 591 [now 12201] of this title, prior to repeal by Pub. L. 103–35, §203(a).
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I'm pretty new to the officer side of the house, but I actually agree with you.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Your perspective will change about the time you look for an O4 position. There is little doubt that NCO's would make much better platoon leaders, but it takes to long so by the time you are a field grade officer the college route makes much more sense.
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I have pondered this for the past few years. The degree requirement may be tied to the caste system when feudal lords ruled and governed their vassals. Throughout history there is the case of those in power to seek appointments as officers and lead the commoners into battle. Think of our own history as well as European history and this would appear to be the case. Today, I wonder if the current all volunteer military no longer reflect our country or social norms. Many of the best officers I served under were prior enlisted (many, but not all). I have wondered if a reorganization of military should be proposed. As a recommendation, require that all service members begin their careers as enlisted members and attend the boot camp of their respective service. After a period of 3 years, those noted with potential may apply to attend a service academy for eventual commissioning as officers. Along with reorganization, require all service members to attend college classes and obtain an Associates Degree during their first enlistment. Officer candidates would complete a Bachelors degree during OCS training at their academy, a two year program leading to their commission. Those choosing to remain enlisted, may opt to continue their education during active service. Yes, this is a simplistic recommendation and needs work to take care of the specifics; but the idea is pretty straightforward. Classes could be a combination of online and classroom and the degree would be supervised and accredited by the respective service academy. Just an idea.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I checked and don't see your dates of service CPO David Welsh, but believe it or not, this idea id not new. We tossed it out and debated it during my time at the Senior Enlisted Academy (Class 09) and even proposed it up the chain. Of course it never made it anywhere, to radical since it would cut out all other forms of Officer Procurement.
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