Posted on Jul 2, 2015
Drill and Ceremonies. Should we start bringing this back into the ranks?
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I've noticed that aside from NCOES and other ceremonial venues, that rarely do we see units actually "drilling" anymore. When's the last time you saw a squad leader take his guys out and run through the basics? I think this is something we as mid level leaders should really bring back. Personally I think that something as simple as marching your soldiers and drilling them, as well as developing their own skill at performing drill as well as leading it builds confidence and discipline. What say you? Should we start bringing this back into the ranks? Do you think it would reinforce discipline in the junior soldiers?
Army
Discipline
Drill and Ceremony
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 12
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SFC Marcus Belt
Maj John Bell - But every Soldier has been to Basic AND AIT by the time I get them. By the time they come to USASOC, the training wheels are off. You advocate going back to training wheels when they've already passed that stage by the time they arrive at their permanent units.
I'll bet you that I've prepared to fight a near-peer adversary more recently than you have sir.
Russian and Chinese proxies are not "near-peer" and would likely engage us in unconventional means so as to avoid dying quickly. And embarrassingly.
And frankly, your Cold War roots are showing. Russia was not capable of engaging the US decisively for at least the last decade of the USSR's existence, and you almost certainly know that. China stands to lose more than it gains from open conventional conflict and everyone except the late Tom Clancy knows this as well.
And with regards to what the Pentagon is planning for, I previously asked you that if Battalion and Brigade level commanders were letting the skill atrophy, it was likely because they saw no need for it, or at the very least, low return on investment. And further, the Pentagon has typically been woefully UNprepared for any war the US itself didn't initiate, so to that point, the only way we will be prepared to fight Russia or China is if we start the fight.
Again and finally: tactical movement is good. Drill and Ceremony is moire than useless, it's wasteful.
Take it easy and God bless!
I'll bet you that I've prepared to fight a near-peer adversary more recently than you have sir.
Russian and Chinese proxies are not "near-peer" and would likely engage us in unconventional means so as to avoid dying quickly. And embarrassingly.
And frankly, your Cold War roots are showing. Russia was not capable of engaging the US decisively for at least the last decade of the USSR's existence, and you almost certainly know that. China stands to lose more than it gains from open conventional conflict and everyone except the late Tom Clancy knows this as well.
And with regards to what the Pentagon is planning for, I previously asked you that if Battalion and Brigade level commanders were letting the skill atrophy, it was likely because they saw no need for it, or at the very least, low return on investment. And further, the Pentagon has typically been woefully UNprepared for any war the US itself didn't initiate, so to that point, the only way we will be prepared to fight Russia or China is if we start the fight.
Again and finally: tactical movement is good. Drill and Ceremony is moire than useless, it's wasteful.
Take it easy and God bless!
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SFC Marcus Belt
1LT William Clardy - And how often do we need to march anyone anywhere? To the DFAC? No. To the Motor Pool? Too far. From the barracks to the office? Not practical.
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1LT William Clardy
SFC Marcus Belt, motor pools and classrooms are not always "too far" to walk (or march). It never hurts to remember how to use the tools in your belt.
Does your silence on my second point mean you don't disagree with the notion that military ceremony still has practical value?
Does your silence on my second point mean you don't disagree with the notion that military ceremony still has practical value?
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SFC Marcus Belt
1LT William Clardy - Soldiers tend to fall into one of two groups, I think of them as "Military Focused" and "Mission Focused". Military focused Soldiers tend to enjoy the ceremony, the tradition, the folderol associated with military service in addition to accomplishing missions.
Mission focused Soldiers tend to see the traditions and ceremonies as distractions.
I'm in the latter camp. When we go to work, people die. It's the most serious business on earth. I feel that the profession of arms should be the most pragmatic, most ruthlessly reductionist in our lines of effort, most results-oriented profession in the world. Warfare isn't getting simpler or easier, and even when we get it right, our Nation spends very very precious blood and treasure.
My experiences lead me to conclude that per-Soldier, the most lethal formations in our Army spend the least time on ceremonies. Many of our traditions and ceremonies are rooted in a time when armies spent most of their time NOT at war. That ship has long since sailed. Maybe it sailed in 1914, perhaps as late as 1945, but certainly post-Vietnam. Peacetime is an animal that doesn't exist.
To sum: if the tradition or ceremony, or tactic or procedure makes sense, makes us more lethal or more likely to survive combat, then we keep it. If not, it goes away.
The strength of the Nation is its Army: the Army's mission is to deter war and win in combat, when called upon. That which is tangential to that must be relegated to the ever-growing-but-still-not-big-enough pile of "stuff we used to do".
And in the interest of full disclosure, I was a Battalion Color Sergeant for two years and enjoyed it a great deal.
Didn't do much to make the enemies of the United States tremble though.
Mission focused Soldiers tend to see the traditions and ceremonies as distractions.
I'm in the latter camp. When we go to work, people die. It's the most serious business on earth. I feel that the profession of arms should be the most pragmatic, most ruthlessly reductionist in our lines of effort, most results-oriented profession in the world. Warfare isn't getting simpler or easier, and even when we get it right, our Nation spends very very precious blood and treasure.
My experiences lead me to conclude that per-Soldier, the most lethal formations in our Army spend the least time on ceremonies. Many of our traditions and ceremonies are rooted in a time when armies spent most of their time NOT at war. That ship has long since sailed. Maybe it sailed in 1914, perhaps as late as 1945, but certainly post-Vietnam. Peacetime is an animal that doesn't exist.
To sum: if the tradition or ceremony, or tactic or procedure makes sense, makes us more lethal or more likely to survive combat, then we keep it. If not, it goes away.
The strength of the Nation is its Army: the Army's mission is to deter war and win in combat, when called upon. That which is tangential to that must be relegated to the ever-growing-but-still-not-big-enough pile of "stuff we used to do".
And in the interest of full disclosure, I was a Battalion Color Sergeant for two years and enjoyed it a great deal.
Didn't do much to make the enemies of the United States tremble though.
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Absolutely a must! Bringing back the basics is vital to regaining control. Look at other countries and what do you see... They go through this a lot and I believe that we are missing the boat.
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I certainly do. After becoming the Detachment NCOIC for my unit, I have begun to incorporate D&C into the daily stuff
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I know this is an old post, and sure I’m Navy. And yes, I’m going to mention JROTC, but hang with me and hear me out.
I would say, yes, more D&C. I’m not saying make it mandatory fun, or just another thing we have to do to take up time, or to move from place to place.
I note that when I accessed this story, the related stories to pop up we’re about unit history, military traditions, and the ACU. These are the “extras”, Can we do the job of killing the enemy without knowing our unit’s history,wiout salutes and honors, without shining our boots and starching the uniforms? Of course we can. Can we teach a student to have a successful life without history, culture, and literature? Sure. But will that person be better for it? Will they know the “why”, or just limited to “what”?
I’m a history teacher. I tell my students that any computer can do math, science, and grammar. But it takes a human to do the humanities, you get the higher and the better by studying history, literature, culture, religion, philosophy, music, art, etc. etc. Its the little things that take success to a more complete level.
I was in JROTC, Army, as a high schooler. That unit, for over 30 years, has been in the top 5% of all JROTC units, nationwide. We had a Vietnam-era Infantry SGM with a CIB, a Soldiers Medal for heroism, and. DrillSGT crest. We also had an MP 1SG with the Drill badge, and a Cav LTC. We marched, and marched, and drilled. We did the other too, map reading, first aid, presentations, military history, but oh we did D&C.
But you know what that LTC, 1SG, and SGM told us? What those upperclassmen in high school echoed? As freshmen, we were told that 1) this is the fundamental, and 2) when you get this....then “welcome to the unit”. You get this, you’re a part of the team. And when we wore the pickle Class Bs, with our cadet officers in Green A’s and the “raiders” in BDUs (starched, with shined boots), we were told “look good in those uniforms. I had friends die while wearing them”.
So now, I GET to wear the pickle suit, I GET to starch BDUs and shine black boots, I GET to march, I have pride in my appearance, because 1) I’m part of the team, and 2) it’s an honor to carry on the flame of those who’ve gone before me, also part of the team.
To this day, I can’t think of more pride, in every student from the projects to the rich kids to the rednecks, than when we, as high schoolers, did D&C in Class B greens or BDUs.
But of course, now history’s not important enough to teach in school, we cut music and arts, wear baggy and crumpled ACUs to the office, and gaggle instead of drill.
Maybe I’m a old soul in a young body, but I miss the detail, the pride, the team, the professionalism of yonder years.
I would say, yes, more D&C. I’m not saying make it mandatory fun, or just another thing we have to do to take up time, or to move from place to place.
I note that when I accessed this story, the related stories to pop up we’re about unit history, military traditions, and the ACU. These are the “extras”, Can we do the job of killing the enemy without knowing our unit’s history,wiout salutes and honors, without shining our boots and starching the uniforms? Of course we can. Can we teach a student to have a successful life without history, culture, and literature? Sure. But will that person be better for it? Will they know the “why”, or just limited to “what”?
I’m a history teacher. I tell my students that any computer can do math, science, and grammar. But it takes a human to do the humanities, you get the higher and the better by studying history, literature, culture, religion, philosophy, music, art, etc. etc. Its the little things that take success to a more complete level.
I was in JROTC, Army, as a high schooler. That unit, for over 30 years, has been in the top 5% of all JROTC units, nationwide. We had a Vietnam-era Infantry SGM with a CIB, a Soldiers Medal for heroism, and. DrillSGT crest. We also had an MP 1SG with the Drill badge, and a Cav LTC. We marched, and marched, and drilled. We did the other too, map reading, first aid, presentations, military history, but oh we did D&C.
But you know what that LTC, 1SG, and SGM told us? What those upperclassmen in high school echoed? As freshmen, we were told that 1) this is the fundamental, and 2) when you get this....then “welcome to the unit”. You get this, you’re a part of the team. And when we wore the pickle Class Bs, with our cadet officers in Green A’s and the “raiders” in BDUs (starched, with shined boots), we were told “look good in those uniforms. I had friends die while wearing them”.
So now, I GET to wear the pickle suit, I GET to starch BDUs and shine black boots, I GET to march, I have pride in my appearance, because 1) I’m part of the team, and 2) it’s an honor to carry on the flame of those who’ve gone before me, also part of the team.
To this day, I can’t think of more pride, in every student from the projects to the rich kids to the rednecks, than when we, as high schoolers, did D&C in Class B greens or BDUs.
But of course, now history’s not important enough to teach in school, we cut music and arts, wear baggy and crumpled ACUs to the office, and gaggle instead of drill.
Maybe I’m a old soul in a young body, but I miss the detail, the pride, the team, the professionalism of yonder years.
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SFC Greg Bruorton
Amen, Chaps, to all you've said! In ROTC, I marched in the old Eisenhower uniform, won in high school drill platoon competition in Detroit (just 3rd place), but had a great time doing it. I taught fellow cadets the Old Infantry drill and they loved it, which is drill based on Civil War times. Queen Anne drill was among my favorites so I proclaim that D&C does motivate and instill Esprit de Corps in units.
By the way, you write well.
By the way, you write well.
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LCDR (Join to see)
SFC Greg Bruorton - thank you sir! Writing sermons, a doctoral dissertation, and doing counseling has taught me to, as they phrased it in a Horacio Hornblower episode, “be a wordsmith”. Though I write and teach much better than I speak.
Never did any drill competitors aside from impromptu ones put on by the aforementioned SGM and 1SG, but our drill team won nationals for 2 years, and color guard won regions a few times. Sharp folks, they were. Very musical, and D&C almost became a dance IRT the rhythms and sounds.
Never did any drill competitors aside from impromptu ones put on by the aforementioned SGM and 1SG, but our drill team won nationals for 2 years, and color guard won regions a few times. Sharp folks, they were. Very musical, and D&C almost became a dance IRT the rhythms and sounds.
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Is FM 22-5 (Drill and Ceremonies) still in use today? If so, I'm sure the photos from the old M-1 are now showing the M-16. That manual was my second Bible in active duty.
As an added note, I had memorized the FM 22-5 while in high school ROTC, which was of great help when entering Basic Training and later close-order drill in subsequent units of assignment.
As an added note, I had memorized the FM 22-5 while in high school ROTC, which was of great help when entering Basic Training and later close-order drill in subsequent units of assignment.
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Absolutely! Did D&C go the way of teaching cursive writing did in elementary schools? D&C conditions and mentally prepares your men to respond to your voice and commands instantly and with out hesitation. WTF??
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It doesnt teach discipline as much as most people say it does. What teaches good discipline is good NCOs who actually know their job and earn the respect and confidence of their joes. Actually going out and training every day instead of sitting around the footprint doing stupid details that have nothing to do with your job or being a soldier.
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SFC Greg Bruorton
Paul, have you ever drilled a platoon for drill competition, using only FM 22-5? I believe such a practice will build discipline and motivation to excel.
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1LT William Clardy
SSG (Join to see), basic drill is primarily useful for assembling and moving troops in an orderly fashion.
But military ceremony, the part that integrates into daily life, is what teaches discipline, and teaches young leaders to lead and to expect that their commands will be obeyed. Think about the difference between a young sergeant walking into a barracks room and barking "At ease!" in his command voice versus yelling "Everybody shut the f*** up!" as loud as he can. That's where the meaning behind the ceremony makes a difference.
But military ceremony, the part that integrates into daily life, is what teaches discipline, and teaches young leaders to lead and to expect that their commands will be obeyed. Think about the difference between a young sergeant walking into a barracks room and barking "At ease!" in his command voice versus yelling "Everybody shut the f*** up!" as loud as he can. That's where the meaning behind the ceremony makes a difference.
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I just came back from Ft. Benning, and I didn't see any of the troops do much D and C. I avoided the BCT units. Perhaps the OCS is going to the chow hall. I believe that the Airborne units are doing it to durty hours.
If there is three troops, then they should be marching in my opinion.
If there is three troops, then they should be marching in my opinion.
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I retired in 2014 and have to say I was unaware D & C ever left, nothing worse than seeing a ragged formation and/or ceremony especially if it is being viewed by civilians or even worse by the higher ups!!
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I loved DnC when I was in. The last 15 minutes of PT was always designated for DnC. Sometimes that's all we would do for PT but it would be a contest. Start of as a group and each time someone messed a movement out they'd fall out and do pushups, sit-ups or jog the track until the last man was left standing. He would then become in charge of the formation until the next winner was decided or he messed up a command. Made it less monotonous. Counter column and left turn (I think that's what it was called) not column left but where everyone turns immediately, usually used to have a smaller element fall into a large battalion formation.
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SFC Greg Bruorton
David, it's a flanking movement when a unit turns either left or right simultaneously.
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SFC Greg Bruorton
SPC David Willis - For platoon and lesser-sized units the command would be, "Left Flank, March" or "Right Flank, March." For company-sized units, it can only be left or right turn movements as the entire company would not do a direct flanking movement.
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