Posted on Dec 23, 2014
Forced Participation in Christmas celebrations: What would you do?
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From a group for NCOs and former NCOs....
I am currently on a tour in XXXXXX, a newly assigned squad leader to a group of disgruntled soldiers who have been here 7 months. To help morale and esprit de corps, the company has thrown a massive Christmas party, decked to the nines with stockings Christmas everything.
The problem is, two of my Soldiers are not Christian in faith, one is a devout Muslim who does not celebrate Christmas. She informed her previous leadership that she does not celebrate and they forced her to participate in writing her name on a stocking and attend every Christmas party. The command team has refused to call it a holiday party, and has written Christmas on everything from the schedule to the walls. I heard from another NCO that she could be contemplating an EO complaint from the issue.
I researched a little about the Muslim faith and found that I would be upset if I were in her shoes too. I want to talk to her, but I am not Muslim and do not want to offend her. I would refer her to a chaplain, but the camp does not have a Muslim chaplain.
I don't want the situation to escalate, but I don't want to disrespect my new Soldier, who probably has a real case. What should I do? She obviously doesn't want to come to me because she doesn't know me, but they will question me if this all comes to a boil
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I know what I would do, but I'm an EOL, and have been through the training. What would YOU do?
I am currently on a tour in XXXXXX, a newly assigned squad leader to a group of disgruntled soldiers who have been here 7 months. To help morale and esprit de corps, the company has thrown a massive Christmas party, decked to the nines with stockings Christmas everything.
The problem is, two of my Soldiers are not Christian in faith, one is a devout Muslim who does not celebrate Christmas. She informed her previous leadership that she does not celebrate and they forced her to participate in writing her name on a stocking and attend every Christmas party. The command team has refused to call it a holiday party, and has written Christmas on everything from the schedule to the walls. I heard from another NCO that she could be contemplating an EO complaint from the issue.
I researched a little about the Muslim faith and found that I would be upset if I were in her shoes too. I want to talk to her, but I am not Muslim and do not want to offend her. I would refer her to a chaplain, but the camp does not have a Muslim chaplain.
I don't want the situation to escalate, but I don't want to disrespect my new Soldier, who probably has a real case. What should I do? She obviously doesn't want to come to me because she doesn't know me, but they will question me if this all comes to a boil
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I know what I would do, but I'm an EOL, and have been through the training. What would YOU do?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 25
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Great post CW3 (Join to see) ...now to the Group of NCOs. ...... Don't refer her to the chaplain, get off your ass and take her to the Chaplain. Regardless of the faith of your Bn Chaplain, he is responsible to provide help to Soldiers of EVERY faith assigned to your unit. You know you have a Soldier in need of assistance, don't wait for her to come to you.
I don't see where the issue is here anyway. IF you know she doesn't celebrate Christmas and you're her squad leader, excuse her from attending. IF there is any heat from the unit leadership, you make the complaint and take the burden off the Soldier in your squad.
You're in the position to make the easy left and let it pass or the hard right....stand up and do what's right. It's quite possible the test is being made on YOU, being the new squad leader to see how you will respond to a test of right vs wrong authority.
I don't see where the issue is here anyway. IF you know she doesn't celebrate Christmas and you're her squad leader, excuse her from attending. IF there is any heat from the unit leadership, you make the complaint and take the burden off the Soldier in your squad.
You're in the position to make the easy left and let it pass or the hard right....stand up and do what's right. It's quite possible the test is being made on YOU, being the new squad leader to see how you will respond to a test of right vs wrong authority.
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) , You're in with an outstanding group like minded thinkers here on leadership, mentoring, counseling! If you're ever in need of assistance or just want to bounce some thoughts, ideas, or issues, throw it out here! Us old timers are anxious to continue to pass along advise, warnings, and support! It's just one of our ways to continue serving. We lurk here in the background ready to help in situations where you may not be getting it in your unit! Good Luck!
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SSG (Join to see)
Thank you for your help in advance. As an old soldier because of my late enlistment. I really don't know a great deal regarding the Army since I'm prior Navy (1993-1997). So alot of soldiers look to me as if I have alot of answers and I really have none. I've been trolling this site for sometime getting help. But making connections to NCO's who know the stuff is priceless. Thanks again.
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I agree, she shouldn't be forced to do anything against her religion. This is the activity that upsets me as a Chriatian because if te roles were reversed and someone forced them to do Ramadan or something else from the Islamic religion they'd pitch the biggest fit. I live by the "treat others as I'd want to be treated" rule when it comes to stuff like this.
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Well - this is an issue that needs to be stopped immediately! There is no real, valid, legal reason for a command to insist on someone attend a party - even if it's not Christmas. I never liked, nor attended any "command attendance" functions - hell I never showed up to any of my medal ceremonies!
The first time I was counseled on failing to attend a "command function" I challenged it AND filed a grievance against the command. Long story short - I won. I never made a big deal of it - but every command I served under was aware and let it go.
These "command appearances" with religious regalia are total horseshit and need to stop. Don't try to tell me this is for unit cohesion cuz I'll throw out the Bullshit flag.
The first time I was counseled on failing to attend a "command function" I challenged it AND filed a grievance against the command. Long story short - I won. I never made a big deal of it - but every command I served under was aware and let it go.
These "command appearances" with religious regalia are total horseshit and need to stop. Don't try to tell me this is for unit cohesion cuz I'll throw out the Bullshit flag.
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CW3 (Join to see)
What I mean is what was the command function? With whom did you file the grievance? What did they do? What happened after that?
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PO1 (Join to see)
Long story short - there was an edict in writing, from the NSG Command there in Ft Meade, that stated all Navy personnel had to attend a dinner in honor of a retiring officer - in Full Dress Blues. Mandatory purchase of tickets (minimum of two at $50 each) and mandatory "voluntary" payment for a gift.
I filed the grievance with the CNO since no one within the command chain would touch the issue.
Local command started Article 36 proceedings after I refused an Article 15.
I filed the grievance with the CNO since no one within the command chain would touch the issue.
Local command started Article 36 proceedings after I refused an Article 15.
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I totally understand why an SM might be upset if they were force to attend a Christmas party for whatever reason such as religious reasons or a lack there of. So does this Soldier get upset when she receives a four day weekend due to Christmas, Easter, or other religious practices? I have always been someone who would participate in another individual's festivities if invited in order to be educated on other beliefs, cultures and heritages of other people even if it faith based but unfortunately nowadays, not very many people are that open minded as I am.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
I say if you get a day off in the name of Jesus Christ, take that day off brother and spend it with your wife.
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If the command climate is so bad they are forcing Christmas something is seriously wrong. The IG needs to inspect the deeper issues at play. I have never participated willingly In forced holidays, even if it was one I celebrated. I have attended optional functions though. In the meantime I would help your nonchristian comrads to not participate. Even if that means sacrificing your day to sit with them and hang out on your own. It will go a long way to help the morale on your level when they see you are sympathetic to their plight.
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Christmas has become so secular in nature that I don't really see an issue with this. That said, if the soldier truly has religiously held beliefs that he or she believes are contrary to "Christmas" then he or she should not be required to attend. I understand that morale is the issue, and required attendance for morale-based events is in some way appropriate, but if I (as a Christian) were required to attend a Muslim event, I would more than likely feel very offended and flex my rights to avoid attending.
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COL (Join to see)
That's where I was going with this. The vast majority of folks saying they have no issue with it and it should be ok should therefore be fine with leadership mandating that everyone being forced to attend a Ramadan Eid dinner. Many folks might be fine with it but I guarantee you that many others would have significant concerns with it. Our military is funded by taxpayers of all or no religions and our military should strive to be inclusive rather than exclusive.
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Mandatory fun days and parties should be kept at a minimum. I can see every now and then making everybody show up for something, but for the most part the disgruntled types will just be more disgruntled, so it does nothing for building espirit de corps.
Something like Mess Night, yeah mando. No problem. Christmas party? Hell no. Holiday party with anything "Christmas" at it? Hell no. If the NCOs/Staff NCOs don't handle it and tell the person they don't have to attend and then tell the command why, then yes it should be an EO issue. This isn't just a Muslim issue, this is all beliefs. There are many people who do not celebrate certain holidays for many different reasons, to attept to force them to do so is just flat out wrong.
Something like Mess Night, yeah mando. No problem. Christmas party? Hell no. Holiday party with anything "Christmas" at it? Hell no. If the NCOs/Staff NCOs don't handle it and tell the person they don't have to attend and then tell the command why, then yes it should be an EO issue. This isn't just a Muslim issue, this is all beliefs. There are many people who do not celebrate certain holidays for many different reasons, to attept to force them to do so is just flat out wrong.
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COL Ted Mc
Sgt Jason West I once served with a unit which had a tradition (well over 100 years old) of having a "Men's Christmas Dinner" where the troops were served by the unit's officers (including the CO). Strangely enough the females in the unit were not offended by the fact that it was still called the "MEN'S Christmas Dinner" and the non-Christians were not offended by the fact that it was still called the "Men's CHRISTMAS Dinner".
I currently work with people who belong to a multitude of religions (not all of them "Christian") and the ones who have the most difficulty accepting the demise of "Christmas" are the one's who are NOT "Christian" - they simply cannot understand why a society would jettison a long-standing cultural festival simply because some people think that the festival offends the "non-Christians" (which it doesn't). If you want to take a close look at the main drivers behind the "Anti-Christmas Movement" you will find that they are, in the main, [1] former "Christians" who have abandoned their faith (which is OK by me because everyone will face their own judgment in their own way) and [2] pseudo "Liberals" who insist that they just know what is better for you more than you do and that they just know how to make society over into the one that they just know is the one that they just know you would want it to be if only you just knew what they just know (PLEASE NOTE:- Any mention of the fact that they have "goals" but not "plans" as 90% of their program and that the few "plans" that they do have have been tried repeatedly and have never worked previously is cause for expulsion from "The Party".)
PS - It's a "Christmas Tree" and NOT a "Hanukkah Bush" (even if you ARE a Republican).
PPS - Regarding the "Christmas Tree", according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica "The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands to symbolize eternal life was a custom of the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime." so all "Real True Christians" should start demanding that the government not allow any of that "Pagan Religious Stuff" on government property.
I currently work with people who belong to a multitude of religions (not all of them "Christian") and the ones who have the most difficulty accepting the demise of "Christmas" are the one's who are NOT "Christian" - they simply cannot understand why a society would jettison a long-standing cultural festival simply because some people think that the festival offends the "non-Christians" (which it doesn't). If you want to take a close look at the main drivers behind the "Anti-Christmas Movement" you will find that they are, in the main, [1] former "Christians" who have abandoned their faith (which is OK by me because everyone will face their own judgment in their own way) and [2] pseudo "Liberals" who insist that they just know what is better for you more than you do and that they just know how to make society over into the one that they just know is the one that they just know you would want it to be if only you just knew what they just know (PLEASE NOTE:- Any mention of the fact that they have "goals" but not "plans" as 90% of their program and that the few "plans" that they do have have been tried repeatedly and have never worked previously is cause for expulsion from "The Party".)
PS - It's a "Christmas Tree" and NOT a "Hanukkah Bush" (even if you ARE a Republican).
PPS - Regarding the "Christmas Tree", according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica "The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands to symbolize eternal life was a custom of the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime." so all "Real True Christians" should start demanding that the government not allow any of that "Pagan Religious Stuff" on government property.
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Sgt Jason West
COL,
I have no problem calling a Christmas tree a Christmas tree. I have no problem holding Christmas parties. I have no problem keeping with age old customs. I just have a problem with people being forced to participate in Christmas (or any other holiday) customs/traditions/parties if they do not celebrate the holiday or celebrate it in another way. Would a devout Christian be comfortable being forced to participate in Eid Al-Adha parties (if there is such a thing). Would they be ok with being forced to go to a Samhain party (although many do as a Halloween party...so maybe that is a bad example). And yes, most people do not have a problem with these parties, but we should not force everyone. There are those who believe that participating in any sort of celebration of another faith or belief is an offense to their own beliefs. It's not the party or name that is a problem, it is the forcing of people to participate that is the problem. The OP mentioned they made the person put their name ona stocking and all of that. I know Christians that would be offended by that because they do not celebrate the pagan rituals now associated with our commercialized Christmas. They do not exchange gifts, tell tales of Santa and magical reindeer. The basic point is no matter what the religion, one should not be forced to participate if they do not wish to. Most will go along with it so as not to rock the boat, but that doesn't make it right.
I have no problem calling a Christmas tree a Christmas tree. I have no problem holding Christmas parties. I have no problem keeping with age old customs. I just have a problem with people being forced to participate in Christmas (or any other holiday) customs/traditions/parties if they do not celebrate the holiday or celebrate it in another way. Would a devout Christian be comfortable being forced to participate in Eid Al-Adha parties (if there is such a thing). Would they be ok with being forced to go to a Samhain party (although many do as a Halloween party...so maybe that is a bad example). And yes, most people do not have a problem with these parties, but we should not force everyone. There are those who believe that participating in any sort of celebration of another faith or belief is an offense to their own beliefs. It's not the party or name that is a problem, it is the forcing of people to participate that is the problem. The OP mentioned they made the person put their name ona stocking and all of that. I know Christians that would be offended by that because they do not celebrate the pagan rituals now associated with our commercialized Christmas. They do not exchange gifts, tell tales of Santa and magical reindeer. The basic point is no matter what the religion, one should not be forced to participate if they do not wish to. Most will go along with it so as not to rock the boat, but that doesn't make it right.
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COL Ted Mc
Sgt Jason West Sgt. I agree with you. The issue is actually two-fold. First there is the issue of the occasion,and second there is the issue of the compulsion.
Few,IF ANY, people object to other people living by their own religions as long as they do so peacefully. MANY, if not most, people freely take part in the SECULAR aspects of other people's religious celebrations. There isn't a single religion (except for "The Cult of CocaCola") which worships "Santa Claus, his elves and reindeer".
The issue of compulsion, on the other hand, is, as you have stated, of more concern. Personally, my preference would be to allow someone who wants to opt out of an activity for personal/ethical/moral/religious reasons to do so. On the other hand, I've also been known to make sure that those people are consistent (enforcing mandatory fast days on someone who has 'inappropriately claimed' to belong to a religion that has them is "fun" [it also cuts down on the number of 'inappropriate claims' that have to be dealt with]).
Few,IF ANY, people object to other people living by their own religions as long as they do so peacefully. MANY, if not most, people freely take part in the SECULAR aspects of other people's religious celebrations. There isn't a single religion (except for "The Cult of CocaCola") which worships "Santa Claus, his elves and reindeer".
The issue of compulsion, on the other hand, is, as you have stated, of more concern. Personally, my preference would be to allow someone who wants to opt out of an activity for personal/ethical/moral/religious reasons to do so. On the other hand, I've also been known to make sure that those people are consistent (enforcing mandatory fast days on someone who has 'inappropriately claimed' to belong to a religion that has them is "fun" [it also cuts down on the number of 'inappropriate claims' that have to be dealt with]).
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Going out on a limb here I would suggest removing the muslim from the roster. I understand that SOME issues she has with being a muslim could and should not be granted and I would make it very clear to this SM that she should not expect anything further in the direction of lenience towards her duties as a US soldier.Again the Christmas Party I can understand, anything further would be an insult to the uniform and the service.
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Wow that amazes me that the command forced her to participate even after she explained that is not part of her religious beliefs. She has every right to file a EO complaint if she wanted to. That leadership failed her. You don't have to be devout Muslim to talk to her you know what happened is wrong. Pull her aside and talk to her, take her to a Chaplin and if she wants to file an EO report i would point her in the right direction. She and the other soldier should of never been forced to participate in a Christmas party. There intentions were good but how they went about it was all wrong.
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SGT Michael Glenn
I was forced to participate in "mandatory fun days", it never hurt me per say just miffed me off because I couldnt stand my chain and was not a kiss ass and two faced like many were, The way I resolved the issue was to go, eat all their food and then graciously look at my watch and HEYYYYYY what do you know !!!! I have another such party to got to and cant be late !!!!
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My Opinion? What does it matter, Im not serving any longer and have no influence capability in what a currently serving chain of command does.
1 year, 1 month ago when I WAS still serving this nation.... I would have wished that Solder a Happy kwanzaa and asked what she had planned for the evening (or what ever time period the Christian Faith based Christmas party was scheduled)
More so that it was a get together under the guise of "Morale Boosting" Certainly that goal was not accomplished by forcing a Non Christian Faith Solder to participate in a Christian Faith based Christmas party...
And she would have never needed to attend, nor lodge a complaint with EO.... because she would have been excused by ME and the chain of command or NCO support channel would have had the pleasure of dealing with it, or addressing their concern with me and our leaders.
1 year, 1 month ago when I WAS still serving this nation.... I would have wished that Solder a Happy kwanzaa and asked what she had planned for the evening (or what ever time period the Christian Faith based Christmas party was scheduled)
More so that it was a get together under the guise of "Morale Boosting" Certainly that goal was not accomplished by forcing a Non Christian Faith Solder to participate in a Christian Faith based Christmas party...
And she would have never needed to attend, nor lodge a complaint with EO.... because she would have been excused by ME and the chain of command or NCO support channel would have had the pleasure of dealing with it, or addressing their concern with me and our leaders.
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