Fraternization and the Reserves - Where is the line?

Like any job, sometimes the enemy is the one you sleep with. It's up to you to own what your willing to lose for a night or day of fun.

Just my thoughts.

I think the issue with the dual-status soldiers should really be left up to them to police it themselves. For example, Mister so-and-so should be enforcing that people address him properly as SGT so-and-so on drill weekends.

Fraternization should also be consistent among components. I'm a firm believer that you are NOT going to meet your "soul mate" on a 2 week ECT or battle assembly, and have personally watched the drama ensue from soldiers dating themselves and creating problems that the rest of the unit has to pick up after (keeping them separated during a fights, disputes, ex's drama, etc).

Things can get blurry, but we all have to remember that even though you're TPU you're still subject to the same standards and ramifications regardless if you're on or off duty. If you're busted in a domestic violence while "off duty" on a non-drill weekday, you can still get in trouble with the Army. Same things with DUI's, sexual assaults, even some first amendment issues as well. I don't see how fraternization should be different, it's just a lot more difficult to police.

There's billions of people in the world... I'm sure they can find someone else. lol

I think they should lax the standards for everyone. So far I have seen 6 relationships that were inappropriate but ended in marriage. Nothing was ever said or done about it. No reprimands. Not even a slap on the wrist. Why have these standards of they are never enforced?

This is tricky because of how the reserve component works. What if you and your buddy work togther on the civilian side he brought you in. Your friend is a O4 and you enlist as a E3. When you go to drill there should be a different relationship then when you are outside the drill hall. It is complicated due to the fact you have to be disciplined enough to do both not easy as your post above shows.

While I've read all of the replies (to the point of my opinion issuance) I must say from personal experience: fraternization is fraternization is fraternization. In spite of the AR-600 reference by LTC Yinon Weiss and it's obvious reasons for it's existence I have never found that a close personal relationship with a boss to be a good thing in respect to good order and discipline in a military unit. It does not matter under what circumstances: should the boss be the boss both in a military AD scenario or in a civilian scenario or any combination of the two you can imagine - it just doesn't work, period. Let me sum it up simply: The mere APPEARANCE of impropriety creates the fact in most people's eyes. In my lifetime I've seen, observed and had to deal with just about every single possible combination (have NOT had to deal with the person/doll relationship yet) of close personal realtionships between senior and subordinate in every military/civilian, military/military, civilian/civilian, AD/RES, AD/NG, ad nauseum - you name it, I've probably had to deal with it. From the standpoint of the guy on the outside of the relationship (me) dealing with either/both of the individuals in the relationship - it's a losing proposition when it comes to me having to maintain discipline and good order with either (yes, enlisted do chastise officers - it happens all the time) in either the military scenario or the civilain scenario. From my observations - and these are only mine - when one is dealing with the heart, the folks on the outside of that relationship lose - period.

I have yet to meet a couple that can truely maintain proper order and discipline if they are working together - and I've met thousands.

'Nuff said.

Off soapbox.

I consider myself a soldier first, even though the Army designates me a Reservist.

Reminds me of either Reagan or Bush 41's SECNAV who was also a LtCdr USNR Aviator.
One year when he took off to NAS Oceana, a member of the 4th estate asked if it was
awkward being SECNAV and going to Annual Training, he said "heck, no, I'm just one of the guys down there." Then he allowed he did get some visits from Flag Officers that other guys in Squadron did not, lol

The regs should be consistent, and people should be professional enough to realize that "off-duty" activity involving other servicemembers affects the time you are "on-duty."

I think it is actually the policy but not sure it is enforced consistently for all components?

Personal opinion follows: I feel that fraternization is a long held division based on the historical class difference between officers and enlisted. I honestly believe that fraternization should removed (no different than segregation or DADT) and leave the existing unprofessional relationship rules in place. The rules ideally should be equal across all service branches and all components.

After reading the regulations I am still looking for answers just based on status. Say an AGR SSG meets (in the civilian world) a traditional 1LT. They hit it off and they want to start dating. They are apart of two different state National Guards and the 1LT is not anywhere near the SSGs chain of command. Does this fall in the exception?

I read in the reg about how if they are both traditional, because it is a primarily civilian relationship it does. But does the AGR status effect this?

Two different state National Guard?
Completely different MOSs.

Though I never fraternized, reserve components may be more lax with this due to they also have Civilian jobs. I her two rather funny situations. While in the Pennsylvania National Guard, I was a truck driver. I arrived at a warehouse for a drop off and pickup. The dock workers had to load and upload to my specifications. One of the workers was my Company Commander. A few years later I was in Florida working security with an International Company, with the company I was a Major. In the Guard, I was a spec 4. Didn't take promotions because I didn't want to change units. Any way, 3 kids that worked for me for the company, were in the unit. 2 were 2nd Lt's and one 1st Lt.
On one of our extended training weekends, I was with the Co, the Blt Co and Co. I was the Supply Sgt. and without a company XO, the supply Sgt acts as the XO.
Well the 3 Lt's walk up to us and said "excuse us Sir" So the Blt. XO said yes, they replied sorry not you Sir, we need to speak to Me. Canning.
The the Blt. XO stared and the Co explained to him I was their boss in their civilian jobs. Lol They needed to talk to me about having the day off the day after we got back.

It's because of situations like this, where roles may be reversed or you may by co workers in civilian jobs, that fraterniznation may be more lax in reserve components.

Military service is VOLUNTARY.
When you join YOU agree to live under and abide by THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE.
That is all.

There ia a difference between fraternization and socialization. An interesting observation associated with this particular issues is the ever decreasing level of education gap between officares and enlisted, particularly within the Reserve Component. Additionally, enlisted Soldiers have been assuming and performing duties previously performed by officers leaving officers to their own devices frequently resulting in conduct incongruent qith good order and discipline.

When I first joined the Air National Guard, my older sister was in a different unit, she worked first in a different part of the State, then at OTAG. When she transferred into my squadron, she became my NCOIC. Our personal relationship outside the Squadron, and our professional relationship in the Squadron, were kept separate. A few years later I met and started dating my husband, who was also in my Squadron.
On a different note, one of our Squadron Commanders, a Major, was married to an A1C assigned to our Group Headquarters. She was not under his command, and did not deploy with us. Guard and Reserve is a different world then Active Duty.

it is difficult to work with a guy all month long as Jim and one weekend he is now Msgt. Buck, even harder when during the month you are the lead at the shop and he answers to you. however it's not about you it is about the mission.

Active Duty and Reserves serve together, especially during mobilization into hostile areas! Separation of rank and First Name identification is a must for good order and discipline. No favoritism for Reserve friends over Active Duty. Rank and last name is proper protocol

I knew an AD E-3 in the Navy who was getting with an O-4...

It wasn’t fraternization but I actually got a counseling from the 1st Sgt for stopping a female soldier from slipping on ice. Reached out to catch her & rubbed her breast in the process. She reported it.
#DramaQueen

Regulations are there for a reason. When you relax or change a regulation for the U.S.Reserves all that you are doing is setting that Soldier up for failer, because when that Soldier goes on his Annual Training or is mobilized or deployed he could get himself in a lot of trouble or try to use that as a defense. As the old saying goes, if it's not broke don't fix it!