Posted on Sep 17, 2016
LTJG Jftoc Watch Officer
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PTSD out of basic? Night terrors out of AIT? IG and EO complaints? Reports of "hazing" for being dropped for 20 push ups? How do we, as leaders, compensate for the decline of mental toughness in today's new recruits? How can we produce a quality product when we are expected to treat a new E1 with the same respect as an O10?
Edited >1 y ago
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SGT Jerrold Pesz
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When you create a nation of wimps and assholes that is what you will also get in the military.
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LTJG Jftoc Watch Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
>1 y
There should be a way of breaking that behavior.
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MAJ Rn
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
C.S. Lewis was prophetic: "We scoff at bravery and are then shocked to find traitors in our midst" I think of Bergdahl when I read that quote.
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PO2 Skip Kirkwood
PO2 Skip Kirkwood
7 y
If the senior brass had the testicular fortitude to have the backs of the NCOs while they do what needs to be done, this would not be a problem. When your top brass contract the "political correctness disease" everyone below them is doomed.
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MAJ Rn
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You can candidly and honestly "tell it like it is" with a signed and written counseling statement. A good "one on one, come to Jesus" meeting with the NCO can often force folks to wake up. I blame the school systems and "participation trophies" for giving us soft trainees. The boot experience is the first time many of them have ever been challenged.
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MAJ Project Manager
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>1 y
It's more than that...it's also a society that is very reliant on automation...when I was a kid and wanted a Pepsi...my mother gave me a buck...I got on my bicycle and rode down the street...now it's like...someone else gets in a car and goes and gets it for them..."Remote Controls, Cell Phones, Smart Phones, IPads" My father used to tell us to stay outside until the street lights came on...played ball with friends, played ARMY with friends, rode my bike 10 miles to the mall...these kind of things...there was no XBOX either....Game systems for some kids is worse than crack cocaine...enough banter for now...
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
5 y
MAJ (Join to see) - Usually when I wanted a Coke I'd buy it Myself with money i made being a caddy at a Golf Course I'd carry two bags for 18 holes in the morning then do 18 more with two bags in the afternoon for the summer. During the school year I did some caddying but also played sports, rode My bike, played Army, visited My friends. I also played Golf. My Dad told Me He didn't want Me riding My bike after dark, if it was dark call Him and He would come and pick up both Me and My bike. I believed Him and never rode after dark and did get home in time. He never told Me anything that wasn't true and We did have rules a jobs each of us had to do at home to help.
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MAJ Project Manager
MAJ (Join to see)
5 y
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter - Yes, exactly to point...some of today's parents don't parent at all....they let their kids vegetate with their XBOX, PS4, Switch or other game system in their room, and just don't deal with issues. It has created a generation of kids that are introverted, lazy, overweight, and are hypersensitive to things that you would never imagine, It's more of a lesson in psychotherapy...it's unbelievable how many kids are in this state. From a military standpoint, it is highly unlikely they could make it in any service. The IET/BCT Drill Sergeants are frustrated with all the political bs, training SOP changes and can't do their jobs as effectively. I think alot of old timers like me would say...Back in the Day, Basic Training for me was like x,y,z etc...to be honest I wish they bring back the old ways of physical and mental training...which you would hope produces...'"Lean Mean Fighting Machines" for the forces.
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Sgt William Perry
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The mental toughness has to start at home, when their good and young! The real problem is that discipline is considered fucking child abuse now. A good ole ass whooping every now again when nesseccary to teach manners, respect, and to remind an individual that stupidity hurts always worked when I was growing up!
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LTJG Jftoc Watch Officer
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>1 y
I'll drink to that.
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MAJ Project Manager
MAJ (Join to see)
5 y
I would have to agree Sgt William Perry
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SFC Pete Kain
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To quote the French Foreign Legion.....March Or Die. Quit coddling them. They enlisted not drafted fer christs sake.
Thankfully most rise to the challenge. Those that don't.....shrug see ya.
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LTC Stephen C.
LTC Stephen C.
>1 y
I like the unofficial motto of the Légion Étrangère, SFC Pete Kain. Works for me. "Marche ou crève."
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Barry Davidson
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Sgt. Roncari has quite a few good points. Unfortunately, I wish it was as easy as mommy and daddy stepping up to the plate. I've spent many long hours trying to deprogram my children when they come home from school. It's everywhere. About the only way we're going to get back to a majority of mentally prepared people is to get rid of cell phones, internet, TV, and home school all of our children. It might be too late though. We already have a couple of generations of "everyone gets a trophy" parents out there.

I've said this in many an article written, but if you tell people long enough and loud enough that they're a victim, they're going to believe it. I usually get derided, at best, for comments like that. I can only imagine what drill instructors have to put up with, but I have a pretty good imagination based on my experiences in management. (Every time I hear someone say, "I did my stint just to get money for college," I want to slap em. Even worse for conscientious objectors.)

I especially love reading college teeny-boppers quoting stats on PTSD. I know it's real soldiers so don't get me wrong. However, why are the majority of instances not among actual combat veterans, but FOBBITS and REMFs? (If there is some new research done by the military that I haven't seen on this subject, please excuse the comment.) I just happen to believe that people who are mentally prepared to defend their homes and family with deadly force have an easier time in the military. Modern America is doing everything in its power to squash that preparation.
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Barry Davidson
Barry Davidson
>1 y
SGT Alan Dike - I'm not sure if that's still a practice. Hell, you can barely ask someone if they have an ingrown toenail these days without someone getting offended, and then their parents (or the recruits themselves) writing a letter to various members of Congress. I wonder how many reply by endorsements training commands receive from higher in any given training cycle.
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MAJ Project Manager
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
Ok my brain hurts..I don't have a JD....this is too academic for me....not used to reading a disertation...in a social-media forum....got to break it down for us retired folk...alot of good points though...I must be developing symptoms of ADHD.
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Barry Davidson
Barry Davidson
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see) - Thanks for the laugh Major. These are actually pretty short for some of my rants that essentially boil down to, "People are stupid." I do try to present accurate information. You should have seen the beating people wished upon me when I wrote an article on the constitutionality of DADT.
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SGT Mike Ange
SGT Mike Ange
9 y
So glad to see "victimology" mentioned here. It seems that everywhere from church to school my daughter is trained and indoctrinated to be a victim. A frequent discussion in our household is choosing to be a victim or choosing not to be and what makes the difference. Our culture is facing a monumental threat in my opinion and this mentality is at the heart of it. I fear that even the best home influences may not be enough to overcome the pervasiveness of this cancer in the general culture. From the post on this board - my concerns seem to have foundation.
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SGM Bill Frazer
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1. Treat everyone with respect. 2. Demand they meet the standards and enforce those standards all the time. 3. Challenge everyone to train up to take your job. 4.Never mistake compassion for a license to slack off. 5. Make them prove their troubles and them help them to overcome them.
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SGT Jack Stevens
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Today's Snowflakes, the ones that cry and throw temper tantrums then, after their initial training show up at their first duty station. Expecting to still be coddled. Remember IETs are meant only to introduce and then AITs were meant the basics of the job. Lowest of the rung on the ladder. They are suppose to get their real training in their first units. So you need to have that first heart to heart talk with new soldier, that life is tough, but war is tougher. Time they grew up very quickly and understand they are no longer a kid. Welcome to the Real World.
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SFC George Smith
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did not know things have dropped so low...
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MAJ Project Manager
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>1 y
You should hear some of the stories the Drill Sergeants talk about...it's pretty pathetic
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LTJG Jftoc Watch Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
>1 y
"I think I dropped my grenade over there, Drill Sergeant.." *confused look*
"I swear to God I wasn't sleeping, Drill Sergeant.." *as the DI holds the Recruit's weapon.
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MCPO Tommy De Rouville
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Stupid . If they can't participate in training.. Dump them as unfit with a less than honorable discharge. They frauded the Govt. and failed to uphold the enlistment contract. Those over 40 guys, should be retired or just discharged.
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MAJ Rn
MAJ (Join to see)
9 y
I cringed when I saw a 45 yr old at Ft Jackson as a trainee. Of course that is often due to sucky private sector jobs combined with huge school debt.
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1LT David Hilgartner
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Here is a simple idea, but hard to implement. Let's pay ALL our troops really well, and make recruiting more selective. Make it competitive, and pick the best. My family has a lot of prior military; my Dad credited the Corps with turning his life around and keeping him out of jail (he enlisted, and retired a Col.). I am watching my stepson turn into an awesome young man thanks to the Corps. Our family has members in every branch of the military (except Natl. Guard, but I might be wrong. I lost track of who is where) All of them feel that they are better for having served. PTSD from AIT? That insults our combat vets with REAL issues. It starts with just telling them NO and saying 'grow up'. Stop apologizing for turning men and women into soldiers. But if our president is going to apologize for the entire US to our enemies, what do we expect from the rest of our 'leaders'?
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SGT Alan Dike
SGT Alan Dike
>1 y
I think different pay more in line with civillians would definitely change retention rates of those who make it in, but I'm not sure you're going to attract new blood with it. There would be some problems with an e4 knowing he's making more than his team chief (say a 25b on a squad of what used to be 31L.. dont know the new designation)...
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1LT David Hilgartner
1LT David Hilgartner
>1 y
Give ALL pay grades a raise. Nobody thinks an E1 making more than his NCO is a good idea. Maybe tie it to Congressional pay raises - if they vote THEMSELVES a raise, the military gets the same... Make Congress use the VA medical system too - that will fix that quick!
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SFC(P) Imagery Sergeant
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>1 y
Sir, with all due respect, to say that them having PTSD from AIT is not a REAL issue is also an insult, you can get PTSD from anything. We are in a kindler gentler nation. While I sit here on staff duty, watching my two runners, I can't help but to think that this conversation comes with every group of SM. We all talk about how much harder we had it, and to some extent make it seem tougher than it ways. It's different knowing what will happen, from experiencing it. Everyone knows that they will get yelled at, and probably cursed at, and made to do various physical exercises, but being in the situation, and the added stress of all of these things occurring at once, as we all know, is not something that everyone can take. It takes a certain type of person to be in the military, and it is hard to tell that you are that type of person prior to being tested. I remember in BCT not knowing that you were able to Refuse to Train, but now, I've had trainees come up to me being there less than 12 hours, telling me that they want to quit. It's societal, we have made everyone a winner, and have made it so that there is no consequence for not finishing and not actually winning, even losers get a trophy now.
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SFC(P) Imagery Sergeant
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>1 y
I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to, as I said in my post, we as a society have given everyone a trophy, even losers get them. Do I agree with it? No, not in the least bit, but do I know that it happens? Yes.
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