Posted on Dec 5, 2015
How do you feel about religious (yes, Christian) expression in the military?
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Take the time to read this short article and let the rest of our RallyPoint community know your thoughts on religious expression in our armed forces. The author opines that US Air Force Academy players praying in the end zone before a football game is taboo - and reflects a much larger problem of religious expression in the military. While cadets don't necessarily reflect the military establishment as a whole, this does stimulate an excellent conversation. Do you agree? If you're the supervisor of a unit, how would you respond? Ultimately, is this an authorized activity under UCMJ?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-b-wilkerson/religion-in-iraq-syria-af_b_8711724.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-b-wilkerson/religion-in-iraq-syria-af_b_8711724.html
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 46
If this is a voluntary activity, I don't see the problem. The U.S. was founded by people who did not want to be forced into a particular state-sponsored religion, e.g., the Church of England. They did not come to America to prohibit ANY public expression of religious belief, they came here so they would not have to adopt a religious faith imposed on them by a dictatorial government. The notion that there should be a prohibition of religious expression in public is nonsense. If you are offended by prayer, then don't watch..you don't have the right to ban others from expressing their beliefs.
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MCPO Roger Collins
LTC Paul Labrador - Precisely! Too bad that the legal eagles don't use that to counter those that like to revise what the Constitution actually says on many issues.
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I am a Christian, and I don't plan to walk on egg shells about that. I read my bible at work, at lunch, in the morning or anytime I have down time. I can handle others doing the same. Why are folks becoming so upset when they see Christians expressing their faith? Is it intolerance? Is it bigotry? Is it political correctness gone too far? I refuse to get one the same level as others who complain but what won't do is answer to someone's PC needs if it discriminate against me as a Christian.
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CDR William Kempner
SSG, I have seen lots of people of different faiths doing that! I DON'T have a problem with Muslims doing that-except if it is disruptive-Have seen that. Most Christians and Jews do their praying quietly or in small groups during lunch/breaks. They aren't hurting anybody.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
Capt Gregory Prickett - Why would I have a problem with a Muslim SM doing the same? Granted I have never had a Muslim SM interrupt this training so he can do a regular prayer but it could happen but he or she would be still responsible to know and learn what they needed.
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We don't give up our free exercise of religion rights when we enter the military, in fact it is an essential part of fulfilling our duty. The USAF has completely surrendered to the anti-Christians bigots like Mikey Weinstein. When he says jump the USAF Chief of Staff says "How high?" The problem is not religion in the military, it is the anti-Christian bigotry of Mikey Wienstein, ACLU, Freedom from Religion and other such KKK-like groups.
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Capt Michael Halpin
MSgt Lowell Skelton - it's Engel v Vitale a 1962 Supreme Court case barring state sponsored prayer in school.. It was written by Justce Black, a KKK member, anti-Catholic bigot. Follow on cases even determined that allowing a minute of silent meditation was unconstitutional.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
Capt Michael Halpin - False interpretation. State sponsored is the key phrase. Moments of silence NOT designated specifically for prayer or meditation have been upheld by the courts. When specific intent is to promote prayer it is unconstitutional. And personal, private prayer which doesn't disrupt instruction has never been banned. Personally, I find the nation far less moral due to the rampant atmosphere of today's toxic evangelical Christianity, which preaches more hate than love.
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Capt Michael Halpin
Actually the Supreme Court does not have the authority to change the Constitution, that can only be done thru the amendment process. The Supreme Court claimed that authority for themselves. There is nothing in the constitution giving them that authority. There is nothing in it that restricts free speech, even on government property. The first act of the first congress was a prayer session. If anything the military is obligated to accommodate the free exercise if its members religious belief as much as possible. The country is in the mess it is because the federal govt gave itself authority to do anything it wants so long as all three branches agree, so far without restriction.
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MAJ Hugh Blanchard
When the Army went to the Gulf they distributed camo-cover Bibles. It was delicate since Saudi Arabia would not be happy about anything other than the Quran. But those Bibles were distributed to the force.
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I have mixed feelings. Having read the article I do not fully agree with the author. The fact that a group kneel in prayer does not in itself indicate that is evangelical or fundamentalist. It does happen after virtually every college and pro football game, though many broadcasters do not show it on TV.Â
As to devotees of other faiths expressing their thanks in public, it would probably be surprising at first. However, I am not sure it would happen given the differences in the way thanks is expressed, and the differences in belief over free will vice predetermined outcome.Â
As to the UCMJ angle, I do not believe so, however I suspect it could be argued it depends. The military is a unique environment and faith has always played a strong role in that environment. Dating back for centuries, if not eons before there was an American military or an Amrcian Nation.Â
There has never been a time in the history of the American military tradition that has not Included public displays of faith.
As to devotees of other faiths expressing their thanks in public, it would probably be surprising at first. However, I am not sure it would happen given the differences in the way thanks is expressed, and the differences in belief over free will vice predetermined outcome.Â
As to the UCMJ angle, I do not believe so, however I suspect it could be argued it depends. The military is a unique environment and faith has always played a strong role in that environment. Dating back for centuries, if not eons before there was an American military or an Amrcian Nation.Â
There has never been a time in the history of the American military tradition that has not Included public displays of faith.
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SFC Joseph Weber
I just can't believe there are so many arguments about Jesus, Wiley Coyote, Mohammad, and all these other mythological characters. I wish the Alien Overlords would just show up and settle all this crap.
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It does not take a social scientist to figure out that Christianity and Christians are under attack abroad, and in the US.
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If prayer in the armed forces of this country was good enough for George Washington, it is good enough for me. We have a real issue with understanding our history and how we got here and the vision of our founders. Prayer would have never been compulsory as all had the freedom of conscience but for the Air Force Academy to act like this might be an issue demonstrates the lack of historical awareness even in those hallowed halls.
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The Prayer at Valley Forge is a depiction of one of these moments of intense prayer. It is said that a local British loyalist named Isaac Potts came across Washington praying in the woods one cold, wintry day during that terrible winter of 1777 and 1778. The Potts family owned a local iron forge, to which the name Valley Forge referred, to distinguish it from other forges in the area.
The Pottses were Quakers and loyalists to the British cause. Isaac himself was apparently not connected with the forge at this time, but owned and operated a local grist mill. All the grain that was processed at this grist mill was requisitioned by the Continental Army during the Valley Forge encampment. In addition, General Washington actually stayed in the very home of Isaac Potts during the Valley Forge encampment, requisitioning it as his personal headquarters. Click here to read a personal account of a visit to Valley Forge and the Isaac Potts home from one of Revolutionary War and Beyond's visitors.
There are some conflicting accounts and questions about the accuracy of the story of Isaac Potts, George Washington and the prayer at Valley Forge. The following account is taken from the "Diary and Remembrances" of the Rev. Nathaniel Randolph Snowden, an ordained Presbyterian minister and graduate of Princeton with a degree from Dickinson College, who was born in 1770 and died in 1851. Rev. Snowden stated:
"I knew personally the celebrated Quaker Potts who saw Gen'l Washington alone in the woods at prayer. I got it from himself, myself. Weems mentioned it in his history of Washington, but I got it from the man myself, as follows:
"I was riding with him (Mr. Potts) in Montgomery County, Penn'a near to the Valley Forge, where the army lay during the war of ye Revolution. Mr. Potts was a Senator in our State and a Whig. I told him I was agreeably surprised to find him a friend to his country as the Quakers were mostly Tories. He said, 'It was so and I was a rank Tory once, for I never believed that America c'd proceed against Great Britain whose fleets and armies covered the land and ocean, but something very extraordinary converted me to the Good Faith!" "What was that," I inquired? 'Do you see that woods, and that plain. It was about a quarter of a mile off from the place we were riding, as it happened.' 'There,' said he, 'laid the army of Washington. It was a most distressing time of ye war, and all were for giving up the Ship but that great and good man. In that woods pointing to a close in view, I heard a plaintive sound as, of a man at prayer. I tied my horse to a sapling and went quietly into the woods and to my astonishment I saw the great George Washington on his knees alone, with his sword on one side and his cocked hat on the other. He was at Prayer to the God of the Armies, beseeching to interpose with his Divine aid, as it was ye Crisis, and the cause of the country, of humanity and of the world.
'Such a prayer I never heard from the lips of man. I left him alone praying.
'I went home and told my wife. I saw a sight and heard today what I never saw or heard before, and just related to her what I had seen and heard and observed. We never thought a man c'd be a soldier and a Christian, but if there is one in the world, it is Washington. She also was astonished. We thought it was the cause of God, and America could prevail.' "He then to me put out his right hand and said 'I turned right about and became a Whig.'"
There are several other accounts of the Prayer at Valley Forge, mostly differing in minor details, but remaining substantially the same. One even exists in the writing of Isaac Potts' own daughter Ruth-Anna, who died in 1811. She relates the story even down to the detail of Potts converting to the American cause after seeing General Washington in prayer.
Read more: http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/prayer-at-valley-forge.html#ixzz3tY8ncQnP
_________________________________________________________________________
The Prayer at Valley Forge is a depiction of one of these moments of intense prayer. It is said that a local British loyalist named Isaac Potts came across Washington praying in the woods one cold, wintry day during that terrible winter of 1777 and 1778. The Potts family owned a local iron forge, to which the name Valley Forge referred, to distinguish it from other forges in the area.
The Pottses were Quakers and loyalists to the British cause. Isaac himself was apparently not connected with the forge at this time, but owned and operated a local grist mill. All the grain that was processed at this grist mill was requisitioned by the Continental Army during the Valley Forge encampment. In addition, General Washington actually stayed in the very home of Isaac Potts during the Valley Forge encampment, requisitioning it as his personal headquarters. Click here to read a personal account of a visit to Valley Forge and the Isaac Potts home from one of Revolutionary War and Beyond's visitors.
There are some conflicting accounts and questions about the accuracy of the story of Isaac Potts, George Washington and the prayer at Valley Forge. The following account is taken from the "Diary and Remembrances" of the Rev. Nathaniel Randolph Snowden, an ordained Presbyterian minister and graduate of Princeton with a degree from Dickinson College, who was born in 1770 and died in 1851. Rev. Snowden stated:
"I knew personally the celebrated Quaker Potts who saw Gen'l Washington alone in the woods at prayer. I got it from himself, myself. Weems mentioned it in his history of Washington, but I got it from the man myself, as follows:
"I was riding with him (Mr. Potts) in Montgomery County, Penn'a near to the Valley Forge, where the army lay during the war of ye Revolution. Mr. Potts was a Senator in our State and a Whig. I told him I was agreeably surprised to find him a friend to his country as the Quakers were mostly Tories. He said, 'It was so and I was a rank Tory once, for I never believed that America c'd proceed against Great Britain whose fleets and armies covered the land and ocean, but something very extraordinary converted me to the Good Faith!" "What was that," I inquired? 'Do you see that woods, and that plain. It was about a quarter of a mile off from the place we were riding, as it happened.' 'There,' said he, 'laid the army of Washington. It was a most distressing time of ye war, and all were for giving up the Ship but that great and good man. In that woods pointing to a close in view, I heard a plaintive sound as, of a man at prayer. I tied my horse to a sapling and went quietly into the woods and to my astonishment I saw the great George Washington on his knees alone, with his sword on one side and his cocked hat on the other. He was at Prayer to the God of the Armies, beseeching to interpose with his Divine aid, as it was ye Crisis, and the cause of the country, of humanity and of the world.
'Such a prayer I never heard from the lips of man. I left him alone praying.
'I went home and told my wife. I saw a sight and heard today what I never saw or heard before, and just related to her what I had seen and heard and observed. We never thought a man c'd be a soldier and a Christian, but if there is one in the world, it is Washington. She also was astonished. We thought it was the cause of God, and America could prevail.' "He then to me put out his right hand and said 'I turned right about and became a Whig.'"
There are several other accounts of the Prayer at Valley Forge, mostly differing in minor details, but remaining substantially the same. One even exists in the writing of Isaac Potts' own daughter Ruth-Anna, who died in 1811. She relates the story even down to the detail of Potts converting to the American cause after seeing General Washington in prayer.
Read more: http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/prayer-at-valley-forge.html#ixzz3tY8ncQnP
The Prayer at Valley Forge by Arnold Friberg, George Washington at Valley Forge
The Prayer at Valley Forge by Arnold Friberg - learn about George Washington at Valley Forge during the hard winter of 1777-1778 during the American Revolution. You can also buy Arnold Friberg prints here.
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SMSgt (Join to see)
Capt Gregory Prickett - regardless of this specific event, are you telling me that you don't think Washington ever prayed with his forces?
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Cpl Jeff N.
Capt Gregory Prickett , If you choose to dispatch the eyewitness testimony I guess you could say it never happened. They didn't have cameras back then to click the image. It should come as no surprise to you that Washington prayed regularly and fervently and was a devout Christian his entire life.
This story and the painting have been passed down as many stories from that era have been. You can choose to believe it or not. There is no doubt though as to Washington's belief in God and use regular use of prayer.
This story and the painting have been passed down as many stories from that era have been. You can choose to believe it or not. There is no doubt though as to Washington's belief in God and use regular use of prayer.
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SMSgt (Join to see)
Capt Gregory Prickett - you really should do better research. According to the Mount Vernon website, "Washington is reported to have had regular private prayer sessions, and personal prayer was a large part of his life. One well-known report stated that Washington's nephew witnessed him doing personal devotions with an open Bible while kneeling, in both the morning and evening."
http://www.mountvernon.org/research-collections/digital-encyclopedia/article/george-washington-and-religion/
http://www.mountvernon.org/research-collections/digital-encyclopedia/article/george-washington-and-religion/
George Washington and Religion
The George Washington Digital Encyclopedia is the place to learn more about George Washington and the wide range of subjects related to his world and the colonial era.
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SMSgt (Join to see)
Capt Gregory Prickett - I just picked from the first website listed on Google, but I am sure I can line up an impressive line of books that support that he did in fact pray. It is all going to depend on the leaning of the author writing the works.
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Allowing the free expression of religion does not equate to endorsement of that religion. Suggesting that it does is disingenuous at best.
Did he seriously compare evangelicals to the Taliban? He lost all credibility at that point.
Did he seriously compare evangelicals to the Taliban? He lost all credibility at that point.
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CDR William Kempner
. I certainly understand resentment at some of the evangelical proselytizing (notably at USAFA as stated) However, I think a well-meant blessing on our troops/crew/bn or at a graduation is not something to take offense at. As I like to say, I'm a pretty direct person. IF I MEANT to cause offense, YOU WOULD KNOW!
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PO2 Peter Klein
Commander, how do you feel about a blessing at one of the events you mentioned, that is obviously geared to a specific religion and there are participants from other religions in the group?
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SFC Joseph Weber
CW4 (Join to see) - Buckner is probably the most bigoted person on Rallybook. He probably blocked you since all he wants to hear is people who agree with his warped views.
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CDR William Kempner
PO2 Peter Klein It depends on what they are saying. If they ask for blessings on ALL, and finish "in the name of the father and the son, and the holy spirit" or "in the name of Allah' , depending on the religion of the clergyman, I'd just say "Amen". You have to consider what is being said, and how it is being said. If a blessing is asked for ALL, and the clergyman/person ends it with the blessing from their faith, you just smile and go with it. I find the evangelicals a hard swallow myself, as though MY Christian faith is not as good as THEIR Christian faith-a load of baloney. But I do think that people in 2015 are way too interested in taking offense where none is meant.
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TSgt John Temblador, PI, CIPA
Proverbs 8:34-36
Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the LORD; But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death." (NKJV).
sent via Living Word App
tinyurl.com/msql7sc
Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the LORD; But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death." (NKJV).
sent via Living Word App
tinyurl.com/msql7sc
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MAJ Hugh Blanchard
The quote from Eleanor Roosevelt is really rich. Her husband was one of the greatest masters of the art of saying nothing, but saying it in such a way as to make it sound really important. If he had told the American people what he really intended to do with the nation's economy and with America's foreign and security policies, he would probably have been impeached.
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