Posted on Dec 5, 2015
How do you feel about religious (yes, Christian) expression in the military?
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Take the time to read this short article and let the rest of our RallyPoint community know your thoughts on religious expression in our armed forces. The author opines that US Air Force Academy players praying in the end zone before a football game is taboo - and reflects a much larger problem of religious expression in the military. While cadets don't necessarily reflect the military establishment as a whole, this does stimulate an excellent conversation. Do you agree? If you're the supervisor of a unit, how would you respond? Ultimately, is this an authorized activity under UCMJ?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-b-wilkerson/religion-in-iraq-syria-af_b_8711724.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-b-wilkerson/religion-in-iraq-syria-af_b_8711724.html
Religion
UCMJ
Christianity
Islam
Judaism
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 47
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Praying in private before the game, fine; praying on the field, during an official function, not fine.
I feel like this incident was specifically chosen to be provocational. That said, the legal line here is not religion per say, but the exercise of religion in a capacity that creates either the perception of or the actual endorsement of a specific religion by the military, which is to say, the government. The players are personally free to do what they wish in a religious sense, so long as neither they, nor the Service, make it seem like the religion has the endorsement of the Service. They are at an official function, in one of the uniforms of the Academy, therefore, they are representing the Service. If they want to pray in the locker room, so long as they do not force it upon anyone, let them pray.
Praying on the field is nothing more than a public display, and is a violation of both the UCMJ and federal law.
I feel like this incident was specifically chosen to be provocational. That said, the legal line here is not religion per say, but the exercise of religion in a capacity that creates either the perception of or the actual endorsement of a specific religion by the military, which is to say, the government. The players are personally free to do what they wish in a religious sense, so long as neither they, nor the Service, make it seem like the religion has the endorsement of the Service. They are at an official function, in one of the uniforms of the Academy, therefore, they are representing the Service. If they want to pray in the locker room, so long as they do not force it upon anyone, let them pray.
Praying on the field is nothing more than a public display, and is a violation of both the UCMJ and federal law.
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The author is out of his gourd. "pernicious and dangerous". To whom? By whom? As far as I can tell, no one directed or even suggested they pray...they just did. There was no hint of command direction or influence here. Is prayer itself now illegal in America? And his "what if"...what would have happened if one of them had backed off and prayed to Allah or Yahweh? I know the answer: Nothing! It would have been exactly as it was...individuals deciding to pray. What a tool.
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When All Hope Is Gone | Dr. Charles Stanley http://www.intouch.org/watch/when-all-hope-is-gone#.VmhJ7VzR0zc
When All Hope Is Gone | Dr. Charles Stanley
Hope is a word of optimism, and it defines what we are living for. In this sermon, Dr. Stanley explores a biblical story of hopelessness and how Jesus can change our hopeless perspective into joy we can only imagine. There is no such thing as “beyond repair” for God. He has a purpose for each of us, and there is a reason for the trials we face.
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PO2 Christopher Foss
TSgt John Temblador, PI, CIPA - Matthew 6:5-6
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
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Personally I see no issue with it. it only becomes a problem when anyone is favored due to the common no-nos like race, religion, sex etc etc. But I can still a problem if prayer needs special accommodations in means of time or other - but for the example, I have no issue.
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I have no problem with military members choosing to pray in any manner that they feel is consistent with their conscience and the UCMJ. What I do have a problem with is forced communal prayer during military ceremonies. If service members want to pray, let them pray. Do not have a chaplain bless ceremonies because that is a clear disruption of the establishment clause. I as a non-Abrahamic religious person was forced to participate in rituals that I did not agree with on a regular basis because they were performed by a Chaplain. Let me pray as I wish to pray, and I will continue to fight to protect the rights of every individual to pray in the way they wish.
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SMSgt (Join to see)
SPC Joshua Heath - Again, you weren't "forced" to bow your head. Heck I go to church regularly and many times don't bow my head just because the pastor asks me too. You had the ability to not bow your head, you weren't forced to "repeat after me" and just because you felt "pressure" to do so doesn't mean it violated your rights to object. I feel pressure to do a lot of things too but don't, because I am an adult and I don't play the victim card.
I don't expect you to worship my God...that is purely up to you but I do expect to be able to express my thanks to that God anytime and anywhere.
I don't expect you to worship my God...that is purely up to you but I do expect to be able to express my thanks to that God anytime and anywhere.
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SPC Joshua Heath
SMSgt (Join to see) - I would fight to the death to protect your right to worship your god in anyway you feel you need to.
I believe the smoke session for not bowing my head in formation during a prayer belies your statement that I had a choice without coercion. Yes, I chose to exercise my rights and received 'punishment' for doing so. I'm not sure how you are defining forced, but I would say this certainly would be defined as coerced at the very least.
I believe the smoke session for not bowing my head in formation during a prayer belies your statement that I had a choice without coercion. Yes, I chose to exercise my rights and received 'punishment' for doing so. I'm not sure how you are defining forced, but I would say this certainly would be defined as coerced at the very least.
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SMSgt (Join to see)
SPC Joshua Heath - If you were truly "smoked" for not bowing your head, then you weren't "smoked" by a Christian that shares the same biblical beliefs that I hold and I apologize for that.
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SPC Joshua Heath
SMSgt (Join to see) - No need to apologize for the actions of another individual's actions, but I appreciate the sentiment. This did occur, and it was dealt with by the command structure, but it is sadly not an isolated incident and part of why I'm passionate on the topic. I think simply us discussing our experiences is important to finding a way to make every soldier a successful one in and out of uniform.
From that, I think we need to consider the utility of prayer in formation. I have no problem with soldiers praying with each other, or alone. I do have issues with prayer as part of military ceremony and I wonder if its something we should continue to do?
From that, I think we need to consider the utility of prayer in formation. I have no problem with soldiers praying with each other, or alone. I do have issues with prayer as part of military ceremony and I wonder if its something we should continue to do?
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First off what does "congress shall make no law" mean to you. I see no problem with this there were some members of the team that did not participate in the prayer and I think that is fine a personal choice. I think that we need more public prayer. I would not have a problem if a Jew were to pray by there faith. I don't see the issue. They are not bothering anyone. Now if someone was pressured into praying and they did not want to pray then that is something but this. This is nothing. Pray on
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Those who want to pray should be allowed to pray, whether in public or in private. I just retired from an agency where the head of it declared that there would be no praying allowed at any state function so as to avoid offending those of other religions or the non-religious. The wardens passed this on down and the response of the staff, particularly the lower ranking staff, was to ignore it. Any issues were handled amongst themselves, and I never had one complaint either way brought to me.
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The article is thought provoking. The author presents some great points, though I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions.
Simply put, Religious Expression is a Right, as an Individual, and can be exercised Collectively. That said, the Government's place in it should be neutral. It's a PRIVATE matter, as opposed to a PUBLIC matter. the USAFA issue pushes this into the Public realm, or at least gives it the perception of being so.
On a discussion I had last night, on this forum, another active duty service member called Islam a Cult, and went on a diatribe about the different. If he were my Commander, or in any position of authority above me (while I was still in active duty), I'd be "popping red smoke" immediately because I don't think he could separate his personal biases from his professional duties. That is something I NEVER experienced during active duty. It just never came up.
Over the last several years however, we've seen more and more instances where "subtle" views are being pushed. Not everyone ascribes to the same belief system, and that's okay, but when we refuse to let an Airman re-enlist because he won't say "so help me God." on the reenlistment oath (which is not required of all Services), I think the article has "grains of truth."
Simply put, Religious Expression is a Right, as an Individual, and can be exercised Collectively. That said, the Government's place in it should be neutral. It's a PRIVATE matter, as opposed to a PUBLIC matter. the USAFA issue pushes this into the Public realm, or at least gives it the perception of being so.
On a discussion I had last night, on this forum, another active duty service member called Islam a Cult, and went on a diatribe about the different. If he were my Commander, or in any position of authority above me (while I was still in active duty), I'd be "popping red smoke" immediately because I don't think he could separate his personal biases from his professional duties. That is something I NEVER experienced during active duty. It just never came up.
Over the last several years however, we've seen more and more instances where "subtle" views are being pushed. Not everyone ascribes to the same belief system, and that's okay, but when we refuse to let an Airman re-enlist because he won't say "so help me God." on the reenlistment oath (which is not required of all Services), I think the article has "grains of truth."
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MAJ Carl Ballinger - I refrained from mentioning you by name as a courtesy, because it was unneeded for the example. However I am less interested in your obligation as a Christian, and more in your attitude regarding other religions or what you referred to as a "cult."
Just because you had the conversation with ME, doesn't mean that others under your charge won't see it. This is a Private Venue, with Public implications. Just ask Donald Sterling how personal views can be misconstrued, if expanded into the Public.
Just because you had the conversation with ME, doesn't mean that others under your charge won't see it. This is a Private Venue, with Public implications. Just ask Donald Sterling how personal views can be misconstrued, if expanded into the Public.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MAJ Carl Ballinger - I understand that, but it's off-topic of this discussion post. The example in question was used to highlight this article in particular. You commented that you view your Religious Suppression is the Danger. I agree with that. However I counter that it is through adoption of a "de facto" State Sponsored Religion, or quiet endorsement of one (the Author's point).
When we endorse one (even unwittingly, or unintentionally), we risk disenfranchising others. That is why I have the stance of pure Neutrality in the Public square. I have zero problem with the players praying before the game... but I think it should probably be done in the locker room, in "relative private," so we do not create the Perception of Endorsement.
When we endorse one (even unwittingly, or unintentionally), we risk disenfranchising others. That is why I have the stance of pure Neutrality in the Public square. I have zero problem with the players praying before the game... but I think it should probably be done in the locker room, in "relative private," so we do not create the Perception of Endorsement.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Sir, it is not appropriate to call a serving officer a liar when he points out what you said. I read it above, in your words, that it was a "cult."
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