Posted on Jun 5, 2020
How good does an MSM (Meritorious Service Medal) look for an E-4 with 3 years of service with no airborne, air assault etc.?
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I’m PCSing to Fort Campbell and was wondering if it looks good with out having really anything else besides a few AAMs
ERB
Fort Campbell
Awards
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 58
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It looks like 25 promotion points. Other than that, it's not really worth anything other than a slightly surprised look on someone's face when you're at a Christmas party or ASU inspection and they see an E-4 with an MSM. It's uncommon but not unheard of.
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SP5 Dylan Weddell
Last deployment out of 3 was in 2007-2009, as a medic with no senior support in my own FOB taking care of my own battery, and a couple of villages surrounding it I went on every QRF, every mission for 3 companies, VBIED attack, IED attack, luckily none of my soldiers got seriously injured in combat that tour (though a couple idiots did hurt themselves on the FOB and required serious medical attention; from me) but I did have 162 (I counted) battlefield or in village combat or combat related injuries (18 deaths, which did fall on me) from the IDF, Iraqi Police Forces, or villagers in our AO, ranging from electrocution (death, plug in radio in shower, death IDF), Blue on Green (JDAM on noncombatants, death), green on green (Iraqi police force chasing a threat into a mud hut, then more police shooting into the backs of their men and purposefully setting the hut on fire, death, 2 critical), to even villagers coming under mortar fire and having to suture the perineum of the 12 year female and do after care, so I was doing my job with zero support from my superiors from the battalion, and I got an ARCOM, since I was a specialist. Meanwhile, a very "loose" female mechanic who was tasked to the pool at a large COB nearby was given a battlefield promotion, and all the medical sergeants from my battalion were given Bronze Stars for sitting on the COB and playing CoD. Put a bad taste in my mouth for the Army, and was the reason I left. I did what I was trained, in situations I was trained for, but since I had no tits or wasn't seen by the BC it meant nothing, nothing to the Army; hopefully to my men and the Iraqis it meant enough.
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MSG Allan Davis
MSG Joseph Cristofaro - Remember when combat soldiers threw their awards in a shoe box or for some of us out of a bird, because that stuff wasn’t why we signed up and fought? I don’t know about you but I just don’t have anything in common with a soldier who needs accolades or thanks for doing their job. " it left a bad taste in my mouth...." "SP5" Weddell actually left the Army because he didn’t get a pat on the back...... SMFH
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MSG Allan Davis
MSG Joseph Cristofaro - oh I caught where you were going with that. That’s why I put SP5 in quotes lol
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I have never seen anyone below E6 earn an MSM, for an E4 a couple of AAMs is absolutely normal, more than one is good.
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SFC Leo Augustin
As a young SGT my section was getting ready for an inspection, i worked hard getting ready for it, even worked on days off and after hours. the day before the inspection we got a PVT straight out of AIT, we passed the inspection and she was awarded an AAM. up to that point i had no AAM or any award higher. that really affected me and the way i viewed the Army. Also as an SSG i gave my all to a Unit and when i was about to PCS i was put in for an MSM and the Brigade CDR downgraded it an ARCOM. the LT that recommended me for the award was my Supply Officer, he knew all i had done for the company. he took me to talk to the Brigade CDR and i was told that he does not give MSM to SSG or below and i can get an AAM and a ARCOM but not an NSM. funny thing was that he just gave one to a SSG infantry soldier. i have many more cases where the award i was recommended for was downgraded, its no wonder i still have issues after retirement.
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SFC James Himes
I can understand your frustration SFC Leo Augustin. After spending 4 years USAF Security Police K9 and a four year break I enlisted in the National Guard. A couple years later I became AGR (Active Guard/Reserve).
My first AGR base was Lorain Ohio where the supply sergeant was not happy I was assigned as he had another M-Day solder lined up for the spot. That year at Annual Training this solder had a PTSD episode and was unable to go. After our briefing and a stip map of our route we got on the road. By the way I was a SP4 supply clerk/armorer. The first 4 trucks missed the ramp and drove straight on. When I made the turn onto the ramp my SSG started reading me the riot act about not following the others. I explained their mistake but he was not convinced I was right. As we sat at the rally point waiting for the eight trucks who got lost he settled a little bit.
We got to Camp Grayling MI and after a couple days moved out to the field. It was just me and the SSG in supply. The company was suppose to send a squad to help set up the GP Medium. They never showed up and clouds were getting really dark. I mentioned to the SSG and he said he didn't care if everything got destroyed he was not going to chance injury with just me and him setting it up as it took at least a squad plus. By chance I had a family friend who was assigned as our medic for this training. I asked the SSG if I could try and set up the tent and he said he would not approve a line of duty injury report if I hurt myself. I asked my friend after explaining my plans of setting it up and he agreed to help. Just him and me - we put up the GP medium. If you know anything about Army tents this one is a little tougher because of the huge 4x6 center beam. Well we did get it set up and all supplies just before the rain broke - for almost 3 hours. The SSG said he never could have believe only two persons could have done that. He was impressed and explained how he initially didn't want me and was hoping for any excuse to get rid of me but after his selection bailing out and then the convoy success and finally the tent he was glad the Major force him to take me.
But that is just the prelude to the big shaft.
A couple years later I learned that we were going to have a 90MM recoiless rifle range at Grayling. I studied my ass off - all the manuals both repair/maintenance as well as operation and range procedures. Still a E4 (SP4). I overheard through the grapevine that one of the supply sgts was planning on not bringing firing pins so they could not use his units 90s. I decided that for the experience as well as to control my units weapons I wanted to be at that range even though I was not the designated armorer for that range. I showed up and the assigned armorer did not show up because he knew nothing about the weapon. I know the rest of this story will sound far fetched and probably no one left around to verify but I accomplished so much I don't need to make up this shit. So of twelve weapons at that range only four were operational, three of which were all the ones from my unit. The Lt who was running the range, and was from my unit came and asked if I could help the other units get some up. So looking through their weapons I was able to move parts around and get 8 of the twelve ready (I did not even try and get Charley Company online since their sgt deliberately left all firing pins back at the armory).
Next we learn that the Safety NCO, an E6 did not know the range safety procedure so the Lt came back to me and again asked me to to the safety briefing - I agreed but warned the Lt he would owe me. The final straw was the E7 ops Sgt did not know his duties or how to teach the teams the proper firing sequence. This time I told the Lt I wanted to fire in all three positions - standing, kneeling and prone. He was very nervous as then Guard was only authorized to fire in prone. I told him he could get his E7 to do his job so he relented. There were some old wood produce baskets there...not sure for what but figured they would make good visual aids to the danger of the back blast area. I covered the procedures and fired a round standing. I then put the flimsy wood crates a couple feet behind and making sure the rest of the back-blast was safe I fired a round kneeling which tore up and set fire to the crates. As we were putting out the burning wood I heard some one say that was the best f---ing safety demo he ever saw. It was the Battalion O6. He ordered his aid to make sure I received a commendation for my work.
Got back to the Company area and I hear my 1stSgt claiming he wasn't putting me in for doing my job. (?) A couple days latter the Cols' aid came inquiring about the award and so the first sergeant said everyone was getting one. So the E7 got an Army Commendation and the E6 got an Army Achievement and I got an Ohio Commendation. I who had done all the work but because a first sergeant thought I didn't deserve it got the lowest level award. So that is my experience in awards. I got a few more over the years including an Army Commendation, 2 Army Achievements and 5 good conduct. As I retired I did receive the MSM.
My first AGR base was Lorain Ohio where the supply sergeant was not happy I was assigned as he had another M-Day solder lined up for the spot. That year at Annual Training this solder had a PTSD episode and was unable to go. After our briefing and a stip map of our route we got on the road. By the way I was a SP4 supply clerk/armorer. The first 4 trucks missed the ramp and drove straight on. When I made the turn onto the ramp my SSG started reading me the riot act about not following the others. I explained their mistake but he was not convinced I was right. As we sat at the rally point waiting for the eight trucks who got lost he settled a little bit.
We got to Camp Grayling MI and after a couple days moved out to the field. It was just me and the SSG in supply. The company was suppose to send a squad to help set up the GP Medium. They never showed up and clouds were getting really dark. I mentioned to the SSG and he said he didn't care if everything got destroyed he was not going to chance injury with just me and him setting it up as it took at least a squad plus. By chance I had a family friend who was assigned as our medic for this training. I asked the SSG if I could try and set up the tent and he said he would not approve a line of duty injury report if I hurt myself. I asked my friend after explaining my plans of setting it up and he agreed to help. Just him and me - we put up the GP medium. If you know anything about Army tents this one is a little tougher because of the huge 4x6 center beam. Well we did get it set up and all supplies just before the rain broke - for almost 3 hours. The SSG said he never could have believe only two persons could have done that. He was impressed and explained how he initially didn't want me and was hoping for any excuse to get rid of me but after his selection bailing out and then the convoy success and finally the tent he was glad the Major force him to take me.
But that is just the prelude to the big shaft.
A couple years later I learned that we were going to have a 90MM recoiless rifle range at Grayling. I studied my ass off - all the manuals both repair/maintenance as well as operation and range procedures. Still a E4 (SP4). I overheard through the grapevine that one of the supply sgts was planning on not bringing firing pins so they could not use his units 90s. I decided that for the experience as well as to control my units weapons I wanted to be at that range even though I was not the designated armorer for that range. I showed up and the assigned armorer did not show up because he knew nothing about the weapon. I know the rest of this story will sound far fetched and probably no one left around to verify but I accomplished so much I don't need to make up this shit. So of twelve weapons at that range only four were operational, three of which were all the ones from my unit. The Lt who was running the range, and was from my unit came and asked if I could help the other units get some up. So looking through their weapons I was able to move parts around and get 8 of the twelve ready (I did not even try and get Charley Company online since their sgt deliberately left all firing pins back at the armory).
Next we learn that the Safety NCO, an E6 did not know the range safety procedure so the Lt came back to me and again asked me to to the safety briefing - I agreed but warned the Lt he would owe me. The final straw was the E7 ops Sgt did not know his duties or how to teach the teams the proper firing sequence. This time I told the Lt I wanted to fire in all three positions - standing, kneeling and prone. He was very nervous as then Guard was only authorized to fire in prone. I told him he could get his E7 to do his job so he relented. There were some old wood produce baskets there...not sure for what but figured they would make good visual aids to the danger of the back blast area. I covered the procedures and fired a round standing. I then put the flimsy wood crates a couple feet behind and making sure the rest of the back-blast was safe I fired a round kneeling which tore up and set fire to the crates. As we were putting out the burning wood I heard some one say that was the best f---ing safety demo he ever saw. It was the Battalion O6. He ordered his aid to make sure I received a commendation for my work.
Got back to the Company area and I hear my 1stSgt claiming he wasn't putting me in for doing my job. (?) A couple days latter the Cols' aid came inquiring about the award and so the first sergeant said everyone was getting one. So the E7 got an Army Commendation and the E6 got an Army Achievement and I got an Ohio Commendation. I who had done all the work but because a first sergeant thought I didn't deserve it got the lowest level award. So that is my experience in awards. I got a few more over the years including an Army Commendation, 2 Army Achievements and 5 good conduct. As I retired I did receive the MSM.
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SSG (Join to see)
CSM, don't you mean awarded and not earn? I've seen SSG's and below earn them but be flat out denied while I've seen BSM passed out like candy to S-shops who never came to the field nor down range.
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MSgt Anne Slabinski
SFC James Himes - The higher ups always claim the credit. they did while I was in the Army Reserves and also when I was in the Air Force. sorry!
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LTC Edgar Montalvo
I know a few LTCs that were awarded an MSM for retirement after 28 years of service, including successful tours as a battalion commander. Assuming it was "earned," then by all means wear it with pride, and don't worry about how it "looks."
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SPC James Seigars
Sir, I think LTC Montalvo hit it on the head. I am guessing that Spc Carriera being as new to the Military as he is thinks that once other military personnel see that he has the MSM they will think he didn’t “earn” it and it may cause him to have issues with some of his peers. I can tell him as a former soldier who served at Fort Campbell from 02-05 as a Specialist & Sergeant that they won’t care either way (at least they didn’t then and I doubt things have changed).
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When I first entered active service, I looked at the rows of ribbons on others uniforms and was impressed. The longer I served the less I was impressed. Often the determining factor in the giving or not giving of a service award had little to do with the actual quality of service performed and everything to do with the writing skill of the person recommending the award and their motivation for doing so. Even combat awards were less meaningful than they are intended to be. My unit in Vietnam submitted a particular individual for the Medal of Honor for the amazingly heroic action this soldier performed, saving lives at great risk to his own. The recommendation left Division downgraded to a Silver Star, not based upon the action itself, but because the Division had already reached its "quota" of such nominations for that quarter. Lower medals were given out like candy bars to almost anyone and everyone as a weak effort at building morale. I recommend that every soldier perform at his or her highest level of quality and dedication and take self satisfaction in knowing that he or she had done their best, and not give much thought to awards and ribbons for themselves or others.
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Most are keying in on the rarity of this award to a junior SM. I had a past conversation with my friend, CAPT Leonard LeSchack, who as a very junior LT (O3), wore a LOM. He's buried in Arlington right now, but you can look up the reason by Googling Operation Coldfeet. He had some difficulties as he couldn't talk about it as it was compartmentalized TS at the time. Every now and then a more senior officer would berate him for being undeserving or outright accuse him of what we call stolen valor today. The words then were more colorful. As it turned out, Lenny lived multiple lifetimes in his time with most of his CIA affiliation work still classified.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
CAPT Kevin B. Recall 1LT Sandy Annala on RP? Sandy was picked up by the CIA while she was in Nam.
I eagerly await her book - when she has the time to write it. If it meets standards of being ‘cleared’? Before she vanished from RP, I enjoyed her input.
I eagerly await her book - when she has the time to write it. If it meets standards of being ‘cleared’? Before she vanished from RP, I enjoyed her input.
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LCDR (Join to see)
I've seen junior O-6's (Navy) get the MSM on a 3-star's staff as a standard EOT. A junior O-3 getting the LOM? I can imagine the looks CAPT LeSchack must have gotten. I've heard of the outgoing O-6 (who was selected for O-7) "using his silver bullet" to get a senior O-3 the MSM. All I can say is, "Dang!" I'd love to hear the Captain's story! Maybe if I live long enough to declassification of the whole thing...
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CAPT Kevin B.
LCDR (Join to see) - The whole thing is declassified except the particulars of the materials recovered. Some videos on YouTube as well. Having your butt strapped to a balloon on slippery ice in the wind was a real pucker factor event.
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Doesn't matter that you have an MSM but not AA or AB. You'll get some odd looks. May get a question or two. Mainly because you're a SPC with an MSM on your chest.
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SFC Leo Augustin
if you think it is about chasing awards then you are missing the mark. and if i have to explain things to you it will mess up my day, taking me to places and times i want to forget.
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Dude. You saved a persons life! I wouldn’t care what others thought about. I doubt most individuals would have done what you did.
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If your COC actually puts a recommendation in for an MSM for a SPC unless the writer puts enough supporting comments in it its almost guaranteed to be downgraded. I would think that the awards board would most likely downgrade it to an ARCOm which would still be above average for a SPC. I was in for 35 years and I was recommended for an MSM as a SFC and have 3 now. I have seen multiple boards and unless the write up is great they usually get downgraded. Before I retired I was put in for an LOM which I knew for sure I would never get so it is what it is.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
WO1 John C. - Thanks Chief, good to know, I think a SPC with an MSM will be looked at during a promotion board in a much better light as it is very rare. Outstanding that the old (Unofficial) restrictions that were used with rank and awards didn't affect him.
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