Posted on Nov 24, 2015
How will Russia react to their aircraft getting shot down by Turkey? Is Turkey aiding ISIS or at least enabling them?
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This is wrong on many levels. First, Turkey knew it was a Russian Aircraft. I know that Russia did violate their airspace but they did so only so they could attack ISIS. Also, by shooting the aircraft down they should have known that they pilots would fall into the hands of the Rebels and they did. One pilot is died so far and the status of the other is unknown.
With all of this and seeing how Turkey responded to the moment of silence for the french attacks during a sports game does it seem that Turkey is not really in the fight against ISIS. Are they enabling ISIS to continue to fight? ISIS is right on the border with Turkey but they are not battling another. What will become of this.
Turkmen rebels today claimed to have shot dead two Russian pilots in midair as they tried to parachute to safety from their downed aircraft after it was destroyed by Turkey.
In the wake of its destruction for an airspace violation, a deputy commander in a Syrian Turkmen brigade was interviewed clutching what he claimed was a piece of the airmens' parachutes while boasting that his men opened fire as the Russians floated to the ground.
Turkish F-16 fighter planes shot down the Russian two-pilot Sukhoi Su-24 this morning after it violated Turkish airspace and ignored nearly a dozen warnings by the army, Turkish officials claimed.
Alpaslan Celik, the leader of one of the local rebel groups, spoke near the Syrian village of Yamadi following its destruction. He stated: 'Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air.'
The extraordinary downing of the plane by a NATO member has further compromised relations between the myriad of players embroiled in the Syrian conflict.
Meanwhile, Syrian rebels were seen chanting 'Allahu Akbar' over the dead body of one of the Russian pilots in shocking footage released shortly before a separate group blew up a Putin chopper sent to find survivors.
A video filmed by rebels in Syria's Turkomen Mountains, an area which has been the cause of recent tensions between Turkey and Russia, sees ethnic Turkish anti-government fighters celebrating and cheering as they discover the body of the pilot.
This was followed by a second video, claiming to show members of the U.S.-trained Free Syrian Army firing an anti-tank missile and destroying the helicopter sent by Russian forces to rescue the surviving pilot. A Russian soldier was killed in the crash, Moscow said.
Claims the jet breached Turkish airspace have been refuted by a furious Vladimir Putin who said the jet never left Syrian airspace, and the Russian President instead accused Turkey of funding ISIS, and using its military to protect the terrorist organisation. He called it a 'stab in the back' committed by 'accomplices of terrorists'.
The video, posted on Twitter by a man believed to be a Syrian-Turkmen rebel soldier, shows at least a dozen men surrounding the corpse of the pilot, dressed in Russian military fatigues, and some are heard shouting 'Allahu Akbar' – 'God is great'.
Both pilots ejected themselves from the jet and a separate video shows them parachuting down to the ground as fighters fire at them.
A spokesman for the rebel group said the dead pilot, who can be seen covered in bruises and burns in the video, was already deceased when he landed, and that they are conducting search operations in the area to find the second crew member.
The pilot in the video has since been identified as Sergei Rumyantsev, a major at Shagol air force base near Chelyabinsk, east of the Ural mountains in south-central Russia.
ahed Ahmad of the 10th Brigade in the Coast, a group affiliated with the Free Syrian Army, said his group would consider exchanging the body of the Russian pilot for prisoners held by the Syrian government.
The area where the plane went down is mainly populated by Turkmens - Syrians citizens, but ethnic Turks - and is the target of a current Syrian government offensive, where President Bashar al-Assad's ground troops are supported by Russian airstrikes.
The United States believes Russia's incursion into Turkish airspace likely lasted only a matter of seconds before Turkey shot down the warplane, while Obama today laid blame with Putin's insistence on targeting moderate groups fighting the al-Assad regime instead of ISIS.
According to Fox News, he said: 'I do think that this points to an ongoing problem with the Russian operations. In the sense that they are operating very close to a Turkish border, and they are going after moderate opposition that are supported by not only Turkey but a wide range of countries.'
He added such mistakes were less likely to occur if Russia directed its focus towards attacking ISIS.
The Turkomen Mountains is controlled by several insurgent groups, who are not allied with ISIS, including al-Qaida's branch in Syria, the Nusra Front, The Free Syrian Army and the 10th Brigade in the Coast, that consists of local Turkmen fighters.
The Turkish army said the pilots of the Russian jet had been warned 'ten times in the space of five minutes' before the plane was shot down, a statement which has since been backed up by the U.S. military.
'We were able to hear everything that was going on, these (communications) were on open channels,' Baghdad-based military spokesman Colonel Steve Warren said, confirming that ten warnings were issued by Turkish pilots without response.
He added it was not immediately clear on which side of the Turkish-Syrian border the Russian jet had been flying, and it would take some time to analyse data before arriving at that determination.
Meanwhile, President Putin called Turkey's decision to down the plane a 'stab in the back' by the accomplices of ISIS, as his Defence Ministry still claims the jet was flying over Syria and never entered Turkish airspace.
'The loss we suffered today came from a stab in the back delivered by accomplices of the terrorists,' President Putin said, speaking at a meeting with King Abdullah II of Jordan in Sochi, Russia, on Thursday afternoon.
'We will never tolerate such atrocities as happened today and we hope that the international community will find the strength to join forces and fight this evil,' Putin said.
The president warned that 'today's tragic event will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations', shortly before Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov cancelled tomorrow's visit to Turkey, where the two nations were due to discuss Syria.
Putin boldly claimed that Turkey has been buying oil from ISIS, funding the terrorist group, and accused Ankara of protecting the jihadists with the country's military, Moscow-funded RT.com reports.
In a separate incident, sources told AFP in Beirut that a Russian helicopter in the same area in Syria was destroyed by rebels on the ground after being forced to make an emergency landing following damage from rebel fire.
A Syrian military source told AFP that a unit of Syrian regime special forces saved the dozen-strong Russian commando team and brought them back to the regime stronghold of Latakia.
Just hours before the Russian jet was shot down, Ankara called for a U.N Security Council meeting to discuss attacks on Turkmen areas in Syria, which have forced some 1,700 civilians to flee their homes in the last three days, according to Turkish officials.
It followed a summoning of Moscow's ambassador on Friday, when Ankara demanded an immediate end to the Russian military operation near the Syrian border saying the Russian actions did not 'constitute a fight against terrorism' but the bombing of civilians.
Ambassador Andrey Karlov was warned during the meeting that the Russian operations could lead to serious consequences, the ministry said.
Turkish officials said the Russian plane was first warned that it was within ten miles of the Turkish border, and the aircraft then crossed over Turkish territory, adding that a second plane had also approached the border and been warned.
'The data we have is very clear. There were two planes approaching our border, we warned them as they were getting too close,' a senior Turkish official said.
'We warned them to avoid entering Turkish airspace before they did, and we warned them many times. Our findings show clearly that Turkish airspace was violated multiple times. And they violated it knowingly,' the official said.
NATO allies will hold an 'extraordinary' meeting later today at Ankara's request to discuss Tuesday morning's incident, an alliance official said.
'At the request of Turkey, the North Atlantic Council will hold an extraordinary meeting at 4pm. The aim of this extraordinary NAC is for Turkey to inform Allies about the downing of a Russian airplane,' the official said.
The North Atlantic Council consists of ambassadors from the 28 NATO member states.
A Turkish military statement, issued before it was confirmed that the jet was Russian, said the plane entered Turkish airspace over the town of Yayladagi, in Hatay province.
'On Nov. 24, 2015 at around 09.20am(7.20am GMT), a plane whose nationality is not known violated the Turkish airspace despite several warnings (ten times within five minutes) in the area of Yayladagi, Hatary.
'Two F-16 planes on aerial patrol duty in the area intervened against the plane in question in accordance with the rules of engagement at 09.24am(7.24am GMT).'
The Turkish Army later released a radar analysis image which they say tracks the movement of the Russian Sukhoi Su-24 jet, showing where it entered Turkish air space, and where it went down.
'This isn't an action against any specific country. Our F-16s took the necessary steps to defend Turkey's sovereign territory,' a Turkish official told news agencies on condition of anonymity.
Russia's Defence Ministry said in a statement that they are looking into the circumstances of the crash of the Russian jet.
'The Ministry of Defence would like to stress that the plane was over the Syrian territory throughout the flight.'
The statement also claimed that the Sukhoi-24 had been shot down from the ground at the altitude of 6,000metres (3.73m).
Vladimir Putin's spokesman called the downing of the Su-24 warplane a 'very serious incident' but declined to comment further until more facts emerged.
'It is just impossible to say something without having full information,' said Dmitry Peskov.
Russia's government-run TV Zvezda claimed the warplane had been in Syrian airspace the entire time, which allegedly could be proven by 'control systems', a ministry spokesman said.
'It's the kind of thing we're been warning about,' said Ian Kearns, director of the European Leadership Network think-tank in London.
'And it's a direct military engagement between a NATO country and Russia, so I think it's a serious incident in anybody's book.'
Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has spoken with the chief of military staff and the foreign minister about the developments on the Syrian border, the prime minister's office said in a statement, without mentioning the downed jet.
He has ordered the foreign ministry to consult with NATO, the United Nations and related countries on the latest developments, his office said.
Last month, Turkish jets shot down an unidentified drone that had also violated Turkey's airspace.
Turkey and Russia have long been at loggerheads over the Syrian conflict, with Ankara seeking Assad's overthrow while Moscow does everything to keep him in power.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov was due to visit Turkey on Wednesday to discuss Syria, in a trip arranged before this incident, which he abruptly canceller on Tuesday afternoon. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan is meanwhile expected to visit Russia for talks with Putin in late December.
Russia's participation in the Syrian peace process talks in Vienna, the co-operation on the UN Security Council resolution and meetings between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Nato leaders provided signs of a renewed diplomatic engagement between Moscow and the West in recent weeks.
French President Francois Hollande will meet Mr Putin on Thursday and Russia has offered co-operation in the fight against IS following the atrocities in Paris and the downing of a Russian passenger jet in Egypt.
With all of this and seeing how Turkey responded to the moment of silence for the french attacks during a sports game does it seem that Turkey is not really in the fight against ISIS. Are they enabling ISIS to continue to fight? ISIS is right on the border with Turkey but they are not battling another. What will become of this.
Turkmen rebels today claimed to have shot dead two Russian pilots in midair as they tried to parachute to safety from their downed aircraft after it was destroyed by Turkey.
In the wake of its destruction for an airspace violation, a deputy commander in a Syrian Turkmen brigade was interviewed clutching what he claimed was a piece of the airmens' parachutes while boasting that his men opened fire as the Russians floated to the ground.
Turkish F-16 fighter planes shot down the Russian two-pilot Sukhoi Su-24 this morning after it violated Turkish airspace and ignored nearly a dozen warnings by the army, Turkish officials claimed.
Alpaslan Celik, the leader of one of the local rebel groups, spoke near the Syrian village of Yamadi following its destruction. He stated: 'Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air.'
The extraordinary downing of the plane by a NATO member has further compromised relations between the myriad of players embroiled in the Syrian conflict.
Meanwhile, Syrian rebels were seen chanting 'Allahu Akbar' over the dead body of one of the Russian pilots in shocking footage released shortly before a separate group blew up a Putin chopper sent to find survivors.
A video filmed by rebels in Syria's Turkomen Mountains, an area which has been the cause of recent tensions between Turkey and Russia, sees ethnic Turkish anti-government fighters celebrating and cheering as they discover the body of the pilot.
This was followed by a second video, claiming to show members of the U.S.-trained Free Syrian Army firing an anti-tank missile and destroying the helicopter sent by Russian forces to rescue the surviving pilot. A Russian soldier was killed in the crash, Moscow said.
Claims the jet breached Turkish airspace have been refuted by a furious Vladimir Putin who said the jet never left Syrian airspace, and the Russian President instead accused Turkey of funding ISIS, and using its military to protect the terrorist organisation. He called it a 'stab in the back' committed by 'accomplices of terrorists'.
The video, posted on Twitter by a man believed to be a Syrian-Turkmen rebel soldier, shows at least a dozen men surrounding the corpse of the pilot, dressed in Russian military fatigues, and some are heard shouting 'Allahu Akbar' – 'God is great'.
Both pilots ejected themselves from the jet and a separate video shows them parachuting down to the ground as fighters fire at them.
A spokesman for the rebel group said the dead pilot, who can be seen covered in bruises and burns in the video, was already deceased when he landed, and that they are conducting search operations in the area to find the second crew member.
The pilot in the video has since been identified as Sergei Rumyantsev, a major at Shagol air force base near Chelyabinsk, east of the Ural mountains in south-central Russia.
ahed Ahmad of the 10th Brigade in the Coast, a group affiliated with the Free Syrian Army, said his group would consider exchanging the body of the Russian pilot for prisoners held by the Syrian government.
The area where the plane went down is mainly populated by Turkmens - Syrians citizens, but ethnic Turks - and is the target of a current Syrian government offensive, where President Bashar al-Assad's ground troops are supported by Russian airstrikes.
The United States believes Russia's incursion into Turkish airspace likely lasted only a matter of seconds before Turkey shot down the warplane, while Obama today laid blame with Putin's insistence on targeting moderate groups fighting the al-Assad regime instead of ISIS.
According to Fox News, he said: 'I do think that this points to an ongoing problem with the Russian operations. In the sense that they are operating very close to a Turkish border, and they are going after moderate opposition that are supported by not only Turkey but a wide range of countries.'
He added such mistakes were less likely to occur if Russia directed its focus towards attacking ISIS.
The Turkomen Mountains is controlled by several insurgent groups, who are not allied with ISIS, including al-Qaida's branch in Syria, the Nusra Front, The Free Syrian Army and the 10th Brigade in the Coast, that consists of local Turkmen fighters.
The Turkish army said the pilots of the Russian jet had been warned 'ten times in the space of five minutes' before the plane was shot down, a statement which has since been backed up by the U.S. military.
'We were able to hear everything that was going on, these (communications) were on open channels,' Baghdad-based military spokesman Colonel Steve Warren said, confirming that ten warnings were issued by Turkish pilots without response.
He added it was not immediately clear on which side of the Turkish-Syrian border the Russian jet had been flying, and it would take some time to analyse data before arriving at that determination.
Meanwhile, President Putin called Turkey's decision to down the plane a 'stab in the back' by the accomplices of ISIS, as his Defence Ministry still claims the jet was flying over Syria and never entered Turkish airspace.
'The loss we suffered today came from a stab in the back delivered by accomplices of the terrorists,' President Putin said, speaking at a meeting with King Abdullah II of Jordan in Sochi, Russia, on Thursday afternoon.
'We will never tolerate such atrocities as happened today and we hope that the international community will find the strength to join forces and fight this evil,' Putin said.
The president warned that 'today's tragic event will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations', shortly before Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov cancelled tomorrow's visit to Turkey, where the two nations were due to discuss Syria.
Putin boldly claimed that Turkey has been buying oil from ISIS, funding the terrorist group, and accused Ankara of protecting the jihadists with the country's military, Moscow-funded RT.com reports.
In a separate incident, sources told AFP in Beirut that a Russian helicopter in the same area in Syria was destroyed by rebels on the ground after being forced to make an emergency landing following damage from rebel fire.
A Syrian military source told AFP that a unit of Syrian regime special forces saved the dozen-strong Russian commando team and brought them back to the regime stronghold of Latakia.
Just hours before the Russian jet was shot down, Ankara called for a U.N Security Council meeting to discuss attacks on Turkmen areas in Syria, which have forced some 1,700 civilians to flee their homes in the last three days, according to Turkish officials.
It followed a summoning of Moscow's ambassador on Friday, when Ankara demanded an immediate end to the Russian military operation near the Syrian border saying the Russian actions did not 'constitute a fight against terrorism' but the bombing of civilians.
Ambassador Andrey Karlov was warned during the meeting that the Russian operations could lead to serious consequences, the ministry said.
Turkish officials said the Russian plane was first warned that it was within ten miles of the Turkish border, and the aircraft then crossed over Turkish territory, adding that a second plane had also approached the border and been warned.
'The data we have is very clear. There were two planes approaching our border, we warned them as they were getting too close,' a senior Turkish official said.
'We warned them to avoid entering Turkish airspace before they did, and we warned them many times. Our findings show clearly that Turkish airspace was violated multiple times. And they violated it knowingly,' the official said.
NATO allies will hold an 'extraordinary' meeting later today at Ankara's request to discuss Tuesday morning's incident, an alliance official said.
'At the request of Turkey, the North Atlantic Council will hold an extraordinary meeting at 4pm. The aim of this extraordinary NAC is for Turkey to inform Allies about the downing of a Russian airplane,' the official said.
The North Atlantic Council consists of ambassadors from the 28 NATO member states.
A Turkish military statement, issued before it was confirmed that the jet was Russian, said the plane entered Turkish airspace over the town of Yayladagi, in Hatay province.
'On Nov. 24, 2015 at around 09.20am(7.20am GMT), a plane whose nationality is not known violated the Turkish airspace despite several warnings (ten times within five minutes) in the area of Yayladagi, Hatary.
'Two F-16 planes on aerial patrol duty in the area intervened against the plane in question in accordance with the rules of engagement at 09.24am(7.24am GMT).'
The Turkish Army later released a radar analysis image which they say tracks the movement of the Russian Sukhoi Su-24 jet, showing where it entered Turkish air space, and where it went down.
'This isn't an action against any specific country. Our F-16s took the necessary steps to defend Turkey's sovereign territory,' a Turkish official told news agencies on condition of anonymity.
Russia's Defence Ministry said in a statement that they are looking into the circumstances of the crash of the Russian jet.
'The Ministry of Defence would like to stress that the plane was over the Syrian territory throughout the flight.'
The statement also claimed that the Sukhoi-24 had been shot down from the ground at the altitude of 6,000metres (3.73m).
Vladimir Putin's spokesman called the downing of the Su-24 warplane a 'very serious incident' but declined to comment further until more facts emerged.
'It is just impossible to say something without having full information,' said Dmitry Peskov.
Russia's government-run TV Zvezda claimed the warplane had been in Syrian airspace the entire time, which allegedly could be proven by 'control systems', a ministry spokesman said.
'It's the kind of thing we're been warning about,' said Ian Kearns, director of the European Leadership Network think-tank in London.
'And it's a direct military engagement between a NATO country and Russia, so I think it's a serious incident in anybody's book.'
Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has spoken with the chief of military staff and the foreign minister about the developments on the Syrian border, the prime minister's office said in a statement, without mentioning the downed jet.
He has ordered the foreign ministry to consult with NATO, the United Nations and related countries on the latest developments, his office said.
Last month, Turkish jets shot down an unidentified drone that had also violated Turkey's airspace.
Turkey and Russia have long been at loggerheads over the Syrian conflict, with Ankara seeking Assad's overthrow while Moscow does everything to keep him in power.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov was due to visit Turkey on Wednesday to discuss Syria, in a trip arranged before this incident, which he abruptly canceller on Tuesday afternoon. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan is meanwhile expected to visit Russia for talks with Putin in late December.
Russia's participation in the Syrian peace process talks in Vienna, the co-operation on the UN Security Council resolution and meetings between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Nato leaders provided signs of a renewed diplomatic engagement between Moscow and the West in recent weeks.
French President Francois Hollande will meet Mr Putin on Thursday and Russia has offered co-operation in the fight against IS following the atrocities in Paris and the downing of a Russian passenger jet in Egypt.
Turkey
Russia
ISIS
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 23
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The Russians have repeatedly violated Turkish airspace since they began operations in Syria, and it is not likely that it is an accident. The Russians are annoyed that they have to fly all the way around Turkey to fly supplies and sorties into Syria, and say "mother may I" to transit the Bosporus. The Turks meanwhile have repeatedly warned against airspace violations, allegedly shooting down a Russian UAV last month. That SU-24 was warned ten times (according to the Turks) before they intercepted it and shot it down.
A little historical subtext:
Russia and Turkey have been historical enemies for a very long time. When the Russians seized Crimea in the first place back in the 1800s, they took it from the Ottoman Empire. What the Russians would just love is to use their newly acquired peninsula as a base to launch flights against ISIS. It is another way for them to assert their will on a neighbor, and solidify their claim on their newly seized territory, The Russians have an excellent memory for history. So do the Turks.
One other note, the piece of territory that the Russian plane was shot down over, Hayat Province, was only annexed by Turkey from Syria in 1939. Prior to that, it was Ottoman territory up until the end of WWI, when it was included as part of the French protectorate of Lebanon-Syria. Syria has never recognized that territory as belonging to Turkey, so there might be more at work here than meets the casual eye.
Not only that, but the aircraft that was shot down was attacking ethnic Turkmen from a Free Syrian Army faction, not ISIS as the Russians say.
I think Turkey is looking after their own interests, and the Russians were probing their airspace on purpose.
A little historical subtext:
Russia and Turkey have been historical enemies for a very long time. When the Russians seized Crimea in the first place back in the 1800s, they took it from the Ottoman Empire. What the Russians would just love is to use their newly acquired peninsula as a base to launch flights against ISIS. It is another way for them to assert their will on a neighbor, and solidify their claim on their newly seized territory, The Russians have an excellent memory for history. So do the Turks.
One other note, the piece of territory that the Russian plane was shot down over, Hayat Province, was only annexed by Turkey from Syria in 1939. Prior to that, it was Ottoman territory up until the end of WWI, when it was included as part of the French protectorate of Lebanon-Syria. Syria has never recognized that territory as belonging to Turkey, so there might be more at work here than meets the casual eye.
Not only that, but the aircraft that was shot down was attacking ethnic Turkmen from a Free Syrian Army faction, not ISIS as the Russians say.
I think Turkey is looking after their own interests, and the Russians were probing their airspace on purpose.
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CPT (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried - Both really. They are both historic rivals. But Turkey knew they what Russia was doing. There wasn't any valid reason to do this.
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1LT William Clardy
CPT (Join to see), are you saying that you don't think a 17-second transit of a finger of sovereign territory justifies a hot-pursuit shoot-down of the plane after it had exited Turkey's airspace?
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CPT Ahmed Faried
CPT (Join to see) - they have been quite friendly in recent years actually, present brouhaha notwithstanding.
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SFC Kevin Cornett
I started to type out a long thought out reply, but it became verbose. This pic describes the likely outcome much more cogently and succinctly than I ever could have on my own.
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CPT (Join to see) Just be glad this happened today, and not pre-1991.
This has a lot of bad potential. If Russia responds militarily against a NATO member...well, I don't have to tell you what that means. Here's to hoping they keep level heads.
On another note, I watched a video of rebels shooting at the pilots as they drifted down. I'm no fan of Russians, but what a bunch of fucking cowards. Made me grit my teeth. At least let them get down and then engage if you gotta be a dick.
This has a lot of bad potential. If Russia responds militarily against a NATO member...well, I don't have to tell you what that means. Here's to hoping they keep level heads.
On another note, I watched a video of rebels shooting at the pilots as they drifted down. I'm no fan of Russians, but what a bunch of fucking cowards. Made me grit my teeth. At least let them get down and then engage if you gotta be a dick.
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SN Greg Wright
CPT (Join to see) - If I've given the impression that I somehow sympathize with the Russians, I didn't mean to. I dislike them as much as any Cold-War era Vet. Hell I still remember doing duck-and-cover drills in first grade, for the possibility of nukes. And yep, they're certainly ratcheting up tensions unnecessarily.
Like I said, this certainly has the potential to be very, very bad.
Like I said, this certainly has the potential to be very, very bad.
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CPT Ahmed Faried
CPT (Join to see) - it wasn't the first violation of a nation's territory, air or sea.
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SGT (Join to see)
I doubt that Russia will go that far. Turkey's got a well-trained military and Russia knows that while they own the tech edge, it's not enough to guarantee them anything beyond a long, bloody war in Turkey.
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PO2 Mark Saffell
If Russia did violate there airspace they have every right to do what they did. My issue comes with shooting at the pilots. That's what Japan did in WW II and it was wrong then and it's wrong now. And I have to say what makes me the most nervous is the lack of Obama's leadership abilities. His lack of the ability to lead could cause this to become way worse.
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CPT (Join to see), I don't know why Turkey ultimately decided to fire upon and shoot down a Russian fighter aircraft engaging ISIS targets on the ground in Syria, but I do not believe for a moment this decision was made in a vacuum or with little regard for the ensuing fallout such an action was likely to elicit. Sure, the Russian aircraft likely breached Turkish airspace, albeit unintentionally, as it sought out it's IS targets. But why would Turkey choose to shoot a Russian aircraft down, especially in a desolate, remote border region where no population centers or Turkish infrastructure could be claimed to have been threatened by the breach of the Russian aircraft? Yes, Turkey may be a member of NATO and a named member of Obama's coalition to defeat ISIS, but their actions are starting to say something entirely different. Turkey may be able to mea culpa it's way out of this one with Russia this one time, but if anything happens again, Turkey can expect to incur the full weight of Putin's anger in whatever manner he chooses to dole it out.
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CPT (Join to see)
I think Turkey is playing us. We are falling for it. They aren't really don't anything to fight ISIS. Turkey is playing their Nato Card in hopes they will get away with it. I don't think NATO will pack them up on this. .
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CPT Ahmed Faried
SSG John Thornton - pesky facts. Although to be fair they only now began to go after ISIS after their civilian airliner was downed.
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1SG (Join to see)
Those pilots had the misfortune of parachuting near the FSA positions they had targeted earlier. Report say at least one of not both pilots did not survive the crash and/or beating. A Russian Marine was also killed in a rescue attempt.
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CPT (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) There is a theory circulating that the protected airspace was over an area used by ISIS as a supply route and for movement into and out of the area.....
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"With all of this and seeing how Turkey responded to the moment of silence for the french attacks during a sports game does it seem that Turkey is not really in the fight against ISIS. Are they enabling ISIS to continue to fight? ISIS is right on the border with Turkey but they are not battling another. What will become of this."
Let's be careful not to claim something as having an entire nation's imprimatur when it doesn't. Those were soccer hooligans that chose to be idiots by making noise during the moment of silence. Not an entire nation. A similar thing occurred at a football game here in America. Are we all anti- French? As for this shootdown I pray for cooler heads to prevail. No one wins if this escalates.
Let's be careful not to claim something as having an entire nation's imprimatur when it doesn't. Those were soccer hooligans that chose to be idiots by making noise during the moment of silence. Not an entire nation. A similar thing occurred at a football game here in America. Are we all anti- French? As for this shootdown I pray for cooler heads to prevail. No one wins if this escalates.
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SGT (Join to see)
Turkey and Russia are near-peer nations, militarily speaking. Any war with Turkey would leave Russia too weak to carry out its current foreign policy objectives, which appear primarily to be an increase of influence in the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
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SGT (Join to see)
The point I'm making is that Turkey doesn't really need NATO in order to bleed Russia white in a confrontation.
But *with* us, Russia faces a strategically intractable situation in which they would be crushed unless they resorted to nuclear weapons.
But *with* us, Russia faces a strategically intractable situation in which they would be crushed unless they resorted to nuclear weapons.
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CPT Ahmed Faried
SGT (Join to see) - I couldn't agree more. People underestimate Turkey's capabilities. The only real advantage in any conflict is Russia's nuclear weapons....but at that point where they think to use it 1) it means they are losing and facing a potential overrun 2) NATO will be involved.
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CPT (Join to see)
I think Turkey believes it is reacting to airspace violations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/turkey-warns-russia-over-airspace-violations-as-syria-airstrikes-widen/2015/10/05/19d2e7b0-6b47-11e5-b31c-d80d62b53e28_story.html
I think Turkey believes it is reacting to airspace violations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/turkey-warns-russia-over-airspace-violations-as-syria-airstrikes-widen/2015/10/05/19d2e7b0-6b47-11e5-b31c-d80d62b53e28_story.html
NATO warns Russia over airspace violations as Syria airstrikes widen
The rifts grow deeper between Moscow and the Western alliance over the Syrian conflict.
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CPT (Join to see)
Technically they are but it is a bit of an over reaction. They knew the Russians were attacking rebels. They didn't pose a threat to Turkey. Turkey just wanted to flex on them and they did.
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The Russians have violated Turkey's airspace more than once and have been warned about it. It will be fairly easy to prove where the aircraft was when it was engaged. I have read that the Russian Mig was warned 10 times (or attempted to be warned).
Does Turkey support ISIS directly or indirectly? I think there are likely many in Turkey that do and some in their government that do. Why then are they in NATO, good question. They are a good ally only when it is convenient for them to be one.
I suspect Russian pilots will be more careful in the future. I don't think this will escalate as I do think the evidence will show Russia was in the wrong place, Turkey warned and then fired. Game over.
Does Turkey support ISIS directly or indirectly? I think there are likely many in Turkey that do and some in their government that do. Why then are they in NATO, good question. They are a good ally only when it is convenient for them to be one.
I suspect Russian pilots will be more careful in the future. I don't think this will escalate as I do think the evidence will show Russia was in the wrong place, Turkey warned and then fired. Game over.
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1LT William Clardy
Cpl Jeff N., the Vincennes also warned Iran Air Flight 655 prior to blowing it out of the sky.
Just because a warning was transmitted doesn't mean it was heard, especially if the aircrew being warned *knows* that they are not inside somebody else's airspace. How many of those warnings do you think took place during the 17 seconds that the Russian fighter-bomber was actually over territory which Turkey claims sovereignty over? (We could open another whole can of worms if you want to get into whether Syria ever officially ceded that little chunk of ground to Turkey in the years since Turkey laid claim to it.)
Just because a warning was transmitted doesn't mean it was heard, especially if the aircrew being warned *knows* that they are not inside somebody else's airspace. How many of those warnings do you think took place during the 17 seconds that the Russian fighter-bomber was actually over territory which Turkey claims sovereignty over? (We could open another whole can of worms if you want to get into whether Syria ever officially ceded that little chunk of ground to Turkey in the years since Turkey laid claim to it.)
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Cpl Jeff N.
Warnings not heeded or heard are warnings none-the-less. The Russian aircraft was properly identified and warnings appear to have been sent on frequencies the Russians should have been monitoring. This is what happens when there is no clear flight/attack planning in a synchronized way. Do the Russians have AWACS type aircraft guiding their flight crews? I don't know. What we have is a bit of a free-for all in pretty tight air space with multiple combatants and competing agendas. What could possibly go wrong?
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Also, the Free Syrian army shot down 1 of the 2 helicopters try to rescue the surviving pilot .... I think Russia will soon take some kind of military action against Turkey ... and the "THING" will hit the fan ...
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CPT Ahmed Faried
doubtful of a military reaction unless Russia doesn't mind 27 other players being involved.
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PO3 (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried - We will see how many of that 27 will do anything... just as the "world council" before WW1.
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CPT Ahmed Faried
PO3 (Join to see) - lol I know what you mean believe me. Of the 28 members maybe 8 at most pull their weight.
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Not defending Turkey in this, but Russia has had a problem of "flexing" it's muscles and thinking no one would care or do anything. Now this unfortunate incident has happened, who's fault is it really? You've spent the last few years "testing how far" you could go, and someone finally cashed in on a debt your a** can't cash. The real pain behind this are the pilots and their families. They're the middlemen in a mess started in Russia, and "ended" in Turkey. The next important question is will Russia stop testing the waters or will they continue until either they "accidentally" shoot down one of ours, or we "accidentally" shoot down one of theirs? This is one battle Russia cannot win in regards to air power and air superiority.
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CPT (Join to see)
I agree. Someone called them out on it. I didn't think anyone would have done that. But Turkey knows that by being a member of Nato they have some back up if it goes sidesways.
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SSG Warren Swan
CPT (Join to see) - Unfortunately or not depending on how you look at it....that is not a good thing being we are NATO pretty much.
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CPT (Join to see)
SSG Warren Swan - I am surprised how Turkey is not backing down. They are calling Russia out on this.
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