Posted on Oct 16, 2016
LTJG Ansi Officer
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
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TSgt Aircraft Electrical and Environmental Systems
107
107
0
Edited >1 y ago
I had this exact thing happen to me once. I told an airman to do something, and he told me "I DON'T WORK FOR YOU".

Excuse me, airman?

"I don't work for you, I work for Sergeant XXX".

Now, I had been out of the Marine Corps for maybe 12 years and in the Air Force for 10 years by this time, but I saw red and the old knife hand appeared, and I proceeded to explain to him about stripes and ranks and that he WOULD do what I told him or he and I would be in front of the commander immediately.

I was LOUD. They probably heard it 500 yards away.

When I finished, I asked him if he understood me, and he was trying to get under an airplane to get away from me, and telling me "Yes, sir" repeatedly.

We really got along well after that. Never another problem from him, with me or anybody else.
(107)
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SSgt Liam Babington
SSgt Liam Babington
>1 y
I never if at all used the knife hand...was always into devious non aggressive ways to get the attention of Airman under me! The counciling was saved most of the time, maybe I was to lax on the pen but eating up free time got the attention fast!
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SPC Brian Stephens
SPC Brian Stephens
6 y
When an E-4 told an E-5 to fuck off, charges were immediately brought and went right to the new colonel. The Specialist became an instant private and was escorted to the stockade at the Heim for about two months. It really broke him By the time he came back he was all about doing his remaining months' tour and getting the hell out of the Army. He was a loudmouth before who brought in babes into the barracks and like to have sex with them either on tape or with the door open to the hall. The prison transformation was amazing. He did not joke after that and resolved to keep his trap shut and do his time and leave.
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SPC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
SPC (Join to see)
4 y
That’s probably because they all hated you
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SPC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
SPC (Join to see)
4 y
That’s actually called assault and it’s a crime. I would have beaten the fuck out of you and then reported you.
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1SG Al Brown
90
90
0
Edited >1 y ago
I was a rare Corporal, and was publicly punked out by virtually every E6 in the entire Army. I valiantly led every crappy detail that has ever been dumped down the totem pole. By the time I made E5, I was a certified master ninja when dealing with the most imperceptible slight. My reaction to insubordination has always started with "you have obviously lost your mind". The next step (1. corrective action or 2. go see the Wizard) would depend on the location, FORSCOM or BCT land. The regulations are different at BCT land, because the privates say things they shouldn't, most of the time.
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SPC Earl Semler
SPC Earl Semler
>1 y
You can't punish everyone for one sh**bird, you would lose the respect of all the others just like you did with the PVT. No you have to show them that you can't put up with the insubordination that was done in front of them but if you punish them for it who do you think they will blame. This isn't the sixties!~
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SPC Brian Ezell
SPC Brian Ezell
5 y
What is the wizard?
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CPL Jerry Galloway
CPL Jerry Galloway
>1 y
SPC Earl Semler - Mass punishment was still a thing in the 90's. It's a 50/50 bet on the effectiveness. It got the needed effect in my experience.
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2LT Will Lockhart
2LT Will Lockhart
5 mo
2LT Will Lockhart - LOL I don't see what Comment you are referring to?
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SGM Bill Frazer
83
83
0
Turn over the formation to next ranking NCO, tell E2 to follow you to your office. Pull out your copy of UCMJ, and counseling form. Put E2 at parade rest. Read possible charges, ask if he wants to see CO for Article 15 punishment or deal with you. Get to the bottom of the problem. Find a solution! Fill out the counseling form, give him your punishment and tell him if he keeps his act together the counseling and your memory will disappear in 3-6 months. Then find his team leader, and jump him for letting the problem fester
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SFC James Smith
SFC James Smith
>1 y
The words SGM and 1st SGT still make my head snap around. The first thing I do is to see if there's any grass under my boots, then I start checking my NCOs and snuffies.

In the case of public insubordination, the offending troop gets a semi-private review of the events (one NCO witness), a review of what constitutes a lawful order and one chance to immediately comply at the level of a counseling with voluntary additional duty. The counseling session allows the offender one opportunity to present extenuating circumstances. The counseling is one directional, loud and in the offender's face ... an invitation to a physical response is provided through nonverbal means. This does not rise up the chain to my 1st Sgt, XO or CO for a first offense, if at all possible. Counseling slip becomes known to the Plt Ldr, but stays in the "file drawer".
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CPL Joseph Elinger
CPL Joseph Elinger
6 y
Best answer (to me) so far.
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SPC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
SPC (Join to see)
4 y
This is the only legitimate response so far. CSM knows what’s up. I’m tired of reading all these old heads saying shit like “back in my day I would have out my hands on them”

Like don’t you guys know you can’t just assault people anymore? Nobody gives a fuck how old you are unless you are about to fight someone you shouldn’t be touching them.
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SPC David C.
SPC David C.
>1 y
I TOTALLY thought you were going to say "beat him with your copy of the UCMJ" lol
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LTC David Zimmerman
71
71
0
I disagree with the word Punish, you deal with the issue right then since there are 20 other enlisted men that will judge you on how you handle this situation. You are punishing, you are correcting a illegal act. From being enlisted in USMC and 82nd Abn, I've had this happen. Thank God I witnessed a senior Sergeant in the same situation and did what he did. I called two other NCOs over, told the soldier to assume the position of attention. I then calmly to told him, with my fellow Sgts standing there, did I hear him correctly that he was refusing a lawful order, specifically Article 92, and would be subject to the consequences. He started to say something and one of the other SGTs immediately shut him down and said, it was a yes or no question. I asked him the question again. He said he was not refusing and was cut off again by me this time when he wanted to talk. The other SGT, then asked the platoon, who was going to let the PFC not do his fair share of work. The first time this PFC got smart. This is important point, we still wrote his ass up, put him on extra duty for 3 days, working by himself, and kept the counseling sheet if it ever happened again.

Another time I was witness and helped when the PVT refused and would not comply. He was separated and marched right to the 1SGT where hell was unleashed.
Discipline is absolute. Without it, an unit breaks down into a mob.
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LTC David Zimmerman
LTC David Zimmerman
>1 y
A Coward and Not Relevant
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CW3 Dick McManus
CW3 Dick McManus
8 y
Speaking in a disrespectful way to me in front of other soldiers of the same or lower rank requires immediate (assertive) push-back. The best way to reply is give the soldier time to think and correct him/herself. For example, by saying, "You are expected to speak in a respectful tone to me." Or.."I heard what you said, and I am angry (or embarrassed) about what you just said to me. I am your boss and it is disrespectful to say that to me."
Now if the soldier, continues to say things that are "out of order," then the leader should just repeat ..."You are expected to speak in a respectful tone of voice or you are expected not to speak when in the position of "attention" and/or in formation."

Now if you out rank the E2 who has spoken up like this or in a disrespectful tone and you are a lower rank than me, you have a duty to use this assertive method of "Jacking up to disrespectful soldier.

By using this method, a leader will not cause a mentally ill to continue his/her crazy behavior or criminal soldier to act out. Secondly, when you go home at night, you do not carry over bad habits to you loved ones.

The Science of Assertiveness theory -- aka folk knowledge (trial and error science)

Assertive (Leadership) behavior by humans: Builds relationships

Will the long-term affects be worse than any short-term discomfort I may feel if I am assertive in the first place?

An angry and loud communication can be assertive if one is expressing feelings (Using the word "I", ( I am really god damn anger at you ...)

vs. HOSTILE behavior-destroys a relationship: for example, ... “You dumb ass, didn't your mother teach you to report to work on time, etc. etc. Why, didn't you do such and such.... You should do such and such”

If someone has a habit of saying, "Why, don't you do such and such..." we all understand this to mean "I want you" to do such and such. There seems to be some kind of a taboo in our culture against people saying straight up, that they want.
On the use of the word YOU:

...the use of the word "you" is assertive when a person is acting in the role of boss, parent, or leader, for example, a law enforcer, a teacher, the chair of a meeting.

"You are expected to" (follow the rules, etc) , then every time the other person comes up with excuses, sob stories, etc, repeating this phase again and again ("You are expected to" (aka using the broken record shows the other person that you are not afraid to stand your ground and they need for them to rethink their poor behavior.

But remember being skeptically silent is assertive. Meaning, if I try to get the last word.. will I get punched in the nose or some other bad result.

Speaking up in a group to speak is assertive because one is taking the "psychological space" of the whole group.


Hostile behavior: A person uses sarcasm and intimidation to get what they want. One may get what they want, but destroys the relationship afterwards.
It is easy to give up the benefits of hostile behavior when I value myself enough to avoid getting agitated over minor issues and when I am imperfect and incorrect.

Non-assertive behavior: (shy behavior) doing nothing about unpleasant situations and simply try to ignore ones feelings and desires. While it may prevent conflicts with others, one probably will wind up feeling helpless, exploited, angry, and disappointed with one’s self. Being “too shy” to do something.



For example, “I am sorry to bother you.” This is an example, of how being NICE sucks us into a non-assertive down-hill fall. vs. “I want to talk to you.” “ I need your help or I need or want to talk to you.”

or "It was nice talking to you." (when it wasn't and you didn't enjoy talking to them).

Basic Assertive Rights:

1. The right to act in ways that promote my dignity and self-respect as long as others’ rights are not violated in the process.
2. The right to be treated with respect.
3. The right to say no and not feel guilty.
4. The right to experience and express feelings.
5. The right to take time to slow down and think.
6. The right to change my mind.
7. The right to ask for what I want.
8. The right to do less than I are humanly capable of doing.
9. The right to ask for information.
10. The right to make mistakes.
11. The right to feel good about myself.
Must I always assert my rights?
No, I am always free to choose not to assert myself, assuming that I am also willing to take the responsibility for whatever consequences may then occur. I do not have to be assertive all the time, but just try to be better.
Source: The Assertive Option by Patricia Jakubowski and Arthur J. Lange
and NO TRESPASSING by Barker and Barker.
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LTC David Zimmerman
LTC David Zimmerman
8 y
Chief, the question was concerning a PVT speaking to a Senior SGT. Your comments concerning other scenarios are insightful. Thank you
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CW3 Richard McManus
CW3 Richard McManus
>1 y
thanks you.
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LTC(P) Pt Mtc Trainer/Sme
56
56
0
I dismiss him/her to the orderly room, take a witness, and first ask why your order was refused. Then instruct that person on the proper way to address an NCO. And get it all on paper.
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SPC Don Wynn
SPC Don Wynn
>1 y
CPL Robert Dickson - So sorry to hear about your mental issues! Hope you are getting better every day. Thank you for your service!
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SGT Monitor
SGT (Join to see)
>1 y
I love the bring a witness comment. I have seen several issues not handled correctly because it turns into your word vs mine.
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TSgt David Marti
TSgt David Marti
3 y
CPT Pedro Meza my kids ask me the same thing sir.
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SPC Paul Eiden
SPC Paul Eiden
5 mo
SGT (Join to see) -The senior rank should always have more credibility!!!!
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SGT Tom Middleton
55
55
0
Wow! Sounds like suicide by NCO.I can't even imagine such a thing.

I would never let things get so out of control, but we are way past the nice guy approach now.

There is no other option but to smoke the hell out of him.

After discipline is restored in the unit (and it has to happen immediately)
...then its time to speak with the CDR an article 15.

At some point after the dust settles, the NCO's in the unit have to figure out what went wrong. Things should never get this bad.
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SGT Tom Middleton
SGT Tom Middleton
5 y
Good afternoon SPC Ezell,

That’s a good question.

At one time, the meaning of “smoking the hell out of a soldier” was clearly understood. Perhaps it is a phrase no longer in common use.

Typically smoking the hell out of a soldier would involve immediate rigorous PT.

Respectfully,

Sgt Middleton
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Kathy Shingleton
Kathy Shingleton
>1 y
SGT Tom Middleton even I know what that means! And that it need's to be brought back. I've used it on my kid's and now my grandson! If it's not broke why fix it!
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Sgt Kerry Thurlow
Sgt Kerry Thurlow
4 y
I love that phrase, "suicide by NCO."

"Are you suicidal or just stupid?"

Some habits die harder than others. That question may have come out of my mouth in a civilian workplace. Yes, I did get some looks and a couple of snickers. However, my point was heard and task was accomplished.
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SGT Walter Drumm
SGT Walter Drumm
3 y
That and every second of free time they had for the next week or so outside of chow, sleeping and latrine would've belonged to me until the point got across. That would included staff duty runner for at least the next 2 weekends. Let PV2 Shitbird know that whatever he thought was important or wanted to do didn't matter.
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SSG Stephan Pendarvis
53
53
0
well....That is just nice soldier...see me after formation in tops office....you gonna learn today.
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James Harris
James Harris
>1 y
That's when the greatest generation was running the military! From WW2 until the late 80's once Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf had retired then all the sissy rules starting getting added. I think to have a tough and war ready military you have to make them tough and war ready and that's not by reading a bunch of I realize you have to learn about war strategy but the only way to learn is by practicing. I may not know what the hell im talking about because I have never been in the military because I am a type1 diabetic which excludes me from entering but I just want you to know if I didn't have this damn disease I would love to stand shoulder to shoulder with you guys and protect our country from any enemies foreign and domestic.That's from being taught by people who have been through combat expierience and can explain to the soldiers what emotions and things they will go through while being in a firefight out on a battlefield. There is really no way to truly learn unless you get out there and do it. Thanks for reading my two cents worth and if I am totally wrong please let me know so I can rescind my statement!
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MSgt Jimmy Mullins
MSgt Jimmy Mullins
8 y
James Harris - No shit when we hit to the 90s it went to hell.
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SPC Paul Eiden
SPC Paul Eiden
5 mo
In the Army 1962 to 1965 and never would have considered refusing an assignment!!!
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SFC Ricky Fraley
47
47
0
If you are a senior E5and you need to ask this question, then you do not need to be promoted to E6. Take his ass to the Platoon Leader request an article15 for insubordination. Take his money and his spare time. Maybe you should pay better attention while in warrior leader course and BNCO. Fuck I can't believe you asked this. Are you a fucking snowflake?
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SPC Patrick Shaw
SPC Patrick Shaw
>1 y
You had me rolling with laughter.
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A1C Greg McGowan
A1C Greg McGowan
>1 y
CMSgt Mark Schubert - Wish I could give you more than 1 upvote chief. Well said.
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
>1 y
PO2 Tony Barbour - I would have followed the actions I outlined. On the Command Fall Out, PFC Smuck and Squad leader Stand Fast! Fall out!
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SPC Patrick Shaw
SPC Patrick Shaw
>1 y
I am old school; I saw great Officers and Senior NCO'S who utilized judicial discipline as a last resort. START PUSHIN' works pretty well. Folks change their attitude when they reach muscle failure.
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SGT Drill Sergeant
38
38
0
Calmly tell them? Fuck that! I'm yelling in their fucking ear & just waiting for a physical reaction so I can drop the SOB on his head. That's the way we did it back in the Old Army Infantry, hooah!
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1SG First Sergeant
1SG (Join to see)
>1 y
YES!!!!HOOAH, That the Army I joined up for....
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SGT John Hamby
SGT John Hamby
8 y
i agree! and the private would regret even opening his mouth after that!
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GySgt Rick Roy
36
36
0
As a former Drill Instructor, I realize that an idiot like this will only get himself and others killed when the chips are down. Here's my gut reaction!
I would jump so far down his throat that he would do something really stupid! When he does, Court Martial, busted, brig time, and out of my Marine Corps! Had instances like this over my 20 years and gave found that it is a waste of my time to spend 90% of my time trying to square away the trash! Better to throw it out and work with Marines you will be able to count on!
Gysgt Rick Roy
USMC Ret.
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LTC David Zimmerman
LTC David Zimmerman
8 y
AMEN......
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CPL Joseph Elinger
CPL Joseph Elinger
6 y
Absolutely.
Where ANY soldier is involved, potentially, "lives are (eventually) @ stake.
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CWO3 Us Marine
CWO3 (Join to see)
>1 y
In the whisky locker, with no depot spies around. Avoid Ribbon Creek, but it's your watch.
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