Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
I actually had a young man pull this on me, but not while in formation. I was an E5 shift supervisor on a mountaintop site in Italy. The trouble stemmed from the fact this young many was a 4-year college graduate, and he believed the additional duty assignment was beneath him. I remembered all my NCO training about rewarding publicly and punishing privately. I prepared a letter of admonishment, had him report to the workcenter office, and presented his "gift" along with a pretty strong tongue lashing. He never questioned me again.
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I don't know how today's Marines would handle it after 8 years of Obama. With all the time out cards and mommies calling congressman. There may have been a small blanket party and then a shit load of crappy guard duty and fire watches. Refusing a direct order. NJP.
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Oh I'm sorry pfc I didn't know you were in charge. My mistake, why don't you come out front here and let Everyone know what the word for tomorrow is. Oh you don't know?!?
THATS BECAUSE YOURE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO KEEP YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH SHUT IN FORMATION. THANKS TO PFC DIPSHIT PT IN THE MORNING 0300. I'd recommend drinking a lot of water tonight.
Anyone else have something to say to me?
THATS BECAUSE YOURE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO KEEP YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH SHUT IN FORMATION. THANKS TO PFC DIPSHIT PT IN THE MORNING 0300. I'd recommend drinking a lot of water tonight.
Anyone else have something to say to me?
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Had a situation similar years back at a small duty location in the middle of a large civilian area. Small military numbers, no "real base" around and an OIC the same age of some of these barely out of their teens who liked to party with them. Had an E4 report more than an hour late for swing shift on a Sunday, uniform looked as if had been slept in and wearing athletic shoes. When questioned why late stated he had lost track of time, forgot uniform shoes and didn't do laundry. Instructed him to return to his quarters, and return most rapidly in a clean, pressed uniform with proper footwear. Twice, the second time stated as a direct order. Told me to "F" myself and as mentioned had problems already with some new troops who thought they were more civilian than military. Didn't say anything more but picked up the phone and called the senior controller on duty, explained the situation and requested a senior NCO's presence. Not much later an E8 showed up, ascertained the problem and restated the order, again refused. Escorted out by local security, directed troops to sit down individually and write statements, OIC notified and did my own homework with Personnel on Monday and learned that he was already on Control Roster for insubordination to a commissioned officer and was only allowed to PCS because he was on a remote and the dirt bag OIC and never told the staff NCO's. In summary, I requested an Article 15, OIC tried to talk me into accepting an "apology". Lost stripe and more roster time but the other kids who thought it was all a joke and game all of a sudden realized they were in the military and the other Flight Chiefs noticed an extreme change in attitude also. Sometimes you need to burn down the outhouse to get the stink out.
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I keep reading about UCMJ. If you are an NCO and you can handle a Private E-2 open disrespect without UCMJ you need to take off your stripes. I would have the young private explain to me why I should assign the task to another Soldier while he is in the front leaning rest. If he has a valid point then he can get up. He does not have a valid point then he can stay in that position while I finish the formation. After formation, the corrective training would ensue followed by his reporting to the proper location to conduct his work detail. After the detail is complete he would then report to his counseling session and other such actions as directed by his squad leader and/or Platoon Sergeant. It would be a very long day for the young private but at the end of the day, he would still have his money and his rank. The second time he refused and smarted off in formation then the rank, money, and time would go away.
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SPC Don Wynn
Right on Top!! I kept wondering the same thing. But, I have interjected with this also; why did the E-Nothing even think this was acceptable? To me, there is equal punishment needed - obviously the dumbass 'civilian', but the E-5 for having allowed this type of attitude to exist within his unit to begin with! And I saw some comments that seemed to indicate a trip to Top's office as a matter of course. Not when I was in! A trip to Top's office was a death sentence, as far as we kiddy soldiers were concerned!
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Going off the information in the question no more, no less. Once an PV2 says "shove it" to an NCO, it's game on. I would tell him that he's about to become the newest PV1 in the Army unless he shuts up and completes his assignment. Everyone has details they don't want to do. Privates are going to complain, I did my share when I was one but understood the chain of command. There is no way a private should be saying anything close to "shove it" to a leader.
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Sgt Wayne Wood
Yeah... for the other answer...informal counseling has always been officially discouraged ... good Sergeants know the rule "you lie & i'll swear to it" takes care of official misgivings
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC Erich Guenther - only pussies let an asshole cpl talk like that to them without an instant attitude adjustment, a punch in the throat should do it
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CWO3 (Join to see)
Best answer here and what I've said here all along. Handle at the lowest level. Paper should be last resort. Counselling works best provided it's quick, violent, and decisive. Problem solved. No involvement by Chain of Command taking their time better utilized leading and administering the unit. There's a training opportunity for other leaders also. By letting the immediate leader handle it he can better lead him in the future, and develop his leadership skills. Otherwise you have a lion leading a bunch of lambs, and when the lion is gone who's going to take charge? Ain't no fun unless we all get some and fire team leaders need to eat too.
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As an NCO you can NOT give extra duty, restrict to the barracks or take civilian clothing, HOWEVER you CAN assign corrective training, mandate a uniform, and give a duty location.
In the event that you recount, I would assign the task as corrective training, over and over again, to make sure it was done correctly, in a dress uniform requiring an inspection hourly, while assigning a bed for the mandatory 4 hours of rest as required by regulation. THEN...It starts over again, until that young E-2 has a real Come to Jesus moment and is too afraid to open his Cum dumpster. If that does not work, and he continues to run off at the cock holster, document it, and then invite them to a Big Chicken Dinner (Old Army term for Bad Conduct Discharge) SGM (Join to see)
In the event that you recount, I would assign the task as corrective training, over and over again, to make sure it was done correctly, in a dress uniform requiring an inspection hourly, while assigning a bed for the mandatory 4 hours of rest as required by regulation. THEN...It starts over again, until that young E-2 has a real Come to Jesus moment and is too afraid to open his Cum dumpster. If that does not work, and he continues to run off at the cock holster, document it, and then invite them to a Big Chicken Dinner (Old Army term for Bad Conduct Discharge) SGM (Join to see)
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SGT John Hamby
absolutely correct, SSG, that lies with the Company Commander & the 1SG, and as NCO's, it is our duty to enforce said training, extra duty, etc. , within Regulations
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A throat punch sounds appropriate at the time and then allow him to simultaneously drop to the floor. Then tell someone to call 911 and ask if anyone else has a smart ass remark? Then continue handing out work day assignments as before and step over the body.
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make him/her do some damn pushups !! then give them a counseling statement followed by some extra duty.
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SFC William Allen
I watched a PFC do flutter kicks in a hall way because he showed up late for formation one time. He didn't cry or anything afterwards. I was late for PT formation once as an E7 and I voluntarily did flutter kicks in front of the 1SGT's office to show there was no favoritism in that unit.
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Where did all of this “touchy-feely” BS leadership come from? I don’t care if his dog died and his wife is doing free porn with the PX staff. If you do not make an example out of him immediately, you are inviting that same insubordination when bullets are flying and people are dying. The only acceptable response is, “Yes, sergeant.” I’m old school when it comes to dealing with insubordination. When a service member signs their contract, they give up the right to me a snowflake. As a leader, you take care of them, train them and also know what’s going on in their lives so that situations like this almost never happen. I prefer the “you can respect me or you can fear me, but you will execute any legal order given to you” mentality. Also, I and every one of my subordinate leaders will lead by example.
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Rip his head off and shit in his neck; and extra training till he and everyone else in the company knows that is not acceptable.
But hey that's just me.
But hey that's just me.
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I have read several of these responses. Some have made me chuckle, and several have made me shake my head in disbelief. This coddling and know their feelings crap is unbelievable. “It depends on if it’s in garrison or the field”... bulls**t. If someone disrespects an NCO that blantanly, he/she has no respect for any authority and should be dealt with on the spot. Any NCO within earshot should have the SGT back immediately w/o hesitation. Everyone that saw the disrespect should know first hand that it won’t be tolerated in the field, in garrison, and reguardless of what unit they are in. No they don’t have to witness the entire punishment, but they should damn sure see that every NCO is going to be on their ass in half a heartbeat if they disrespect another NCO.
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