Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Get into their personal space, right up next to their ear and clearly communicate the situation including a few questions so they will have to answer "yes, sgt" "no, sgt." "you're word is law, sgt? That is all the others will need to hear to understand that order is in place.
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when I was in there was a lot simpler solution it went like this. Everyone say thank you to Private Shitberg and now you may commence PUSHUPS FOREVER !!
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SSgt Stephen Snyder
While Private Shitbag reads aloud the UCMJ article by article. We had to do this once picking up leaves while the idiot read. It only stopped because he got so upset that his nose started to bleed so snot & blood was flying everywhere. Good times
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Depends on what you call being a "smart mouth".
If a SM is disregarding lawful instructions, cite the regulations giving you the authority to give those instructions and the potential administrative/punitive/legal consequences for failing to carry out those instructions.
Show them the regulation. DO NOT tell them to look it up. Nothing will give a firmer impression that you're making it up as you go.
Also, don't try the old BS excuse about "not having the time to explain". If you're in garrison, you have the time. If you're not in garrison, neither of you should've made it that far, without this being understood. You've been placed in a position of leadership. Lead.
If, after these things have been thoroughly explained and cited, the behavior persists, call the JAG Office. They're open most weekdays. Have a Legal Specialist describe the lengths (and limits) of your authority to this SM. In fact, it may be a good idea to include the JAG representative at your next Battalion Organizational Day, giving a brief class on this very subject.
If the behavior STILL persists, it's time to start some paperwork. At this point, it cannot be argued that you've given the SM every opportunity to understand their duties and obligations. If they are choosing not to meet those obligations, they belong some place else.
Now, if by "smart mouth", you mean those instances where instructions are being given, which are in excess of your authority or which would be in violation of regulations and a sharp PV2 called you on it, the best thing you can do is own the mistake and correct it. Give them credit for having read and understood the regulation, keeping you from violating it. In all my years of service, the most respect I ever got from subordinates was when they saw I was able to own up to a mistake, rather than going on a power trip.
If a SM is disregarding lawful instructions, cite the regulations giving you the authority to give those instructions and the potential administrative/punitive/legal consequences for failing to carry out those instructions.
Show them the regulation. DO NOT tell them to look it up. Nothing will give a firmer impression that you're making it up as you go.
Also, don't try the old BS excuse about "not having the time to explain". If you're in garrison, you have the time. If you're not in garrison, neither of you should've made it that far, without this being understood. You've been placed in a position of leadership. Lead.
If, after these things have been thoroughly explained and cited, the behavior persists, call the JAG Office. They're open most weekdays. Have a Legal Specialist describe the lengths (and limits) of your authority to this SM. In fact, it may be a good idea to include the JAG representative at your next Battalion Organizational Day, giving a brief class on this very subject.
If the behavior STILL persists, it's time to start some paperwork. At this point, it cannot be argued that you've given the SM every opportunity to understand their duties and obligations. If they are choosing not to meet those obligations, they belong some place else.
Now, if by "smart mouth", you mean those instances where instructions are being given, which are in excess of your authority or which would be in violation of regulations and a sharp PV2 called you on it, the best thing you can do is own the mistake and correct it. Give them credit for having read and understood the regulation, keeping you from violating it. In all my years of service, the most respect I ever got from subordinates was when they saw I was able to own up to a mistake, rather than going on a power trip.
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Why would you allow a PVT to run thier mouth or think they have the right to talk back? Light that PVT up and let them know YOU are in charge. But as a senior E5 you should already know that.
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I would get creative with him and his battles. I might be i sensitive but at that point I wouldn't care. If he's gonna go suicidal and/or have issues with following lawful commands how the hecl do you think he is going to behave underfire? Chances ate he is going to get his battles killed. I'd rather correct it in a creative way that either pushes him over so that I can ship him home or he stops being a f---face and does as he is told.
As for creativity...if we are back at home I might make him and his battles tale a hill and put up an 0e-254 while under fire from op4. I'd ask the rest of the platoon to play op4. Then tell him he doesn't get to go home till one of two conditions ate met... he takes the hill, raises said antenna or the sun goes down. Then he gets to do it again the next day for 5 days in a row. See how long he mouths off after that.
As for creativity...if we are back at home I might make him and his battles tale a hill and put up an 0e-254 while under fire from op4. I'd ask the rest of the platoon to play op4. Then tell him he doesn't get to go home till one of two conditions ate met... he takes the hill, raises said antenna or the sun goes down. Then he gets to do it again the next day for 5 days in a row. See how long he mouths off after that.
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... we're gonna have FUN. "PVT F---face what is your problem? Don't like following orders eh? You say your an individual eh? Well tell that to your buddies to your left and your right. Cause they are your new best battle buddies. And everytime you f--- up they are foing to fireman cary you to your next location where they and you will complete what ever task I ask of you. Don't make me give you more best buddies. Cause I when it reaches six I'll let them counsel you as they see fit."
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Attitude reflects leadership.... if a troop feels he can act out in such a manor and show complete lack of respect for orders given then problem is most likely starring you in the face through the mirror. I put e4 on and was assigned 5 troops. One of these troops doing his job on a nuke base
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I had a private smartmouth embarrass me once in a training class after I just made buck sergeant. I had been out of the field army for a while on special assignment and my NBC skills were lacking. Hence the embarrassment. A week or so later, the private smartmouth found himself in a drunken pickle and in violation of post rules. Suddenly, he realized the error of his ways. He learned a valuable lesson about Karma.
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Pull the punk out of formation, have a little one-way conversation about the organization he signed the dotted line in order to join and is stuck in for four years, have said conversation documented (because now we have hurt feelings and paperwork instead of real men and women in today's military), and if there's a future infraction, push for public NJP and make an example of them in front of the entire company. I'm entirely against paperwork and ruining careers for potentially fixable Marines, but that's how we must conduct business per today's standards.
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For the private to react in that manner, he/she did not get fully oriented in Basic or advanced training. So now you are stuck with getting his attention, and explaining his role in the rank structure. Then of course if he has a problem with that then you ramp up your response to get his attention, as to what will happen if he further refuses your orders from this point forward. Then if that doesn't work then threaten his career with punitive actions. Wall to wall therapy from the old days get you in trouble, but self defense is always necessary if he is stupid enough to swing on you. Old ways are not always dead, just smoothed over with red tape.
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In the old days some "fan room counseling" would have been the order of the day ... in today's kinder, gentler military?
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As an E2 who mouthed off in basic, I can tell you that no matter what you do, it's not going to change that shit bricks mind. This entitlement process has fucked our military. You're not going to be the only one who has this happen. As an E4, deployed to Iraq, it was my job to keep my gun trucks running. I had a fresh off the line truck scheduled to leave the wire. I couldn't and wouldn't let anyone else from it or even operate it in the motorpool until I test drove it. I was written up by A CPL because if insubordination. I couldn't care anyways. If they died it rolled over, it was my ass, not theirs. Team/Squad leaders gotta know what's going on long before this shit happens.
To answer my feelings on it, fuck his life up. Fuck him up so bad he's wished he was swallowed. Communication goes both ways and orders are only orders when they're clear.
To answer my feelings on it, fuck his life up. Fuck him up so bad he's wished he was swallowed. Communication goes both ways and orders are only orders when they're clear.
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Hold PFC Smart Ass after formation with his Squad/Team leader. Bring down the path of God upon him and explain what will happen to him the next time this happen......doll out a few reminders, EPD etc., release him then explain to the Squad/Team Ready my expectations and ask him if he likes his job......if it happens again, drop kick too PFC all the way to the brig, seek admin discharge then counsel the Team/Squad leader and give him some guidance on how to handle troublesome Marines. Of course I'm Old and cranky so i might be a little out of line.
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You gotta Ask?? Maybe you shouldnt be E-5? Bust this asshat to E-1 and give him an Article and talk to the commander through Chain of Command of course about dumping him back on the street. Looks in every way he don't wanna be there...make it happen!
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Tell him, "you obviously lost your mind." Pull him aside, counsel him. Inform him that a pattern of misconduct would result in recommndation for UCMJ. Then put him on every shit detail for a month.
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Speak to him in private. Make it clear in no uncertain terms that you will NOT tolerate this insubordination. Make sure he knows the consequences then follow through as appropriate.
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There is a 1980's reaction and a 2000s' reaction. When I was a PFC in the early 80's. I told a young Sgt. I couldn't stand his ass, due to him badgering me constantly......When I got off the ground and dusted myself off from being bodyslammed I realized that I may have gotten too comfortable with him. Most leaders by their Bearing and demeanor will rarely run into this scenario, so I would say take the young man to the side and explainined to him how things are. Don't ruin your career over someone else.
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