Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
I totally agree with Gunny Sgt then make sure it goes on his permanent record
for his future job apps.
for his future job apps.
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"well pv2 dumbass you have several options. first, you can do the task ordered to you and you can like it, second, you can do the task ordered to you and NOT like it, third, I can smoke the dog $hit out of you and then you do the task anyway, or fourth option, I can take your pay with an Article 15. Oh, btw if you pick the last one, your life will suck for a LONG time."
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I have experience being an E2 and have mouth offed to a senior E5 and was smoked everyday for 6months straight. I learned the hard way. Well I since then I have had an E2 smart off to me as an E5. And what did I do? I smoked him, I got ahold of his team leader and smarted off to him too, and nothing worked. Well to make a long story short he got drunk and had a few under aged woman in the barracks and I promptly told my E7. I flew under the radar and he was discharged fast as fuck. Trust your leadership, do things under the books and take care of it. Chances are that that E2 has dirt on someone and that someone is a bitch and let that E2 walk over them. Be different. Fuck that private up, your chain of command will look the other way unless necessary
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As an NCO , 1st step -Oral counseling(praise in public/criticize in private), consult with the Platoon Sgt. about it so they know. and can advise. 2nd time -paper -write up consult with Plt Sgt again , 3 rd time - either another write up or a write up to start Summary Art 15 proceedings of course again keep platoon sgt in loop and then it goes to the Lt. for ok to go to CO for art 15 proceedings. Keep your ducks in a row, I don't know if there are racial differences or other things, so keep this official with command in the loop. Do not want to put yourself in a crack, or be looked at on the same level as this fool
Really the oral counseling better work, if you feel you can't reach him, explain to Plt. Sgt. This stuff needs to be stopped. Can always go indirect too and get E-4's to reach him. The Spec 4 Mafia often carries more weight and alot of times privates listen to them more. Also it is the "lazy" way , LOL, The 4 's already know.
Last couple years in (and then 4 years in the Guard) I refused many E-5 boards to stay a Spec 4 I did not want all the bogus performance reviews,baby-sitting privates ,having your balls put in a jar, etc. God. if a new E-2 disrespected me in an official capacity(or even off duty in a serious way ) , they would find out real quick, which side toast is buttered on and who butters it. I carried some weight in unit , and off-duty, and off post. plus I was a BAMF. Would have been a bad idea to cross me, I have had to explain that nicely to such persons, a few privates (even a couple Lt.'s LOL) before . They fell in line or they were basically started on the way out the Army. Such people need to corrected quick because they will not change otherwise , And if you don't so something that soldier is probably going to step on their dicks to the wrong people, or phuck up, and will be out the door.
Really the oral counseling better work, if you feel you can't reach him, explain to Plt. Sgt. This stuff needs to be stopped. Can always go indirect too and get E-4's to reach him. The Spec 4 Mafia often carries more weight and alot of times privates listen to them more. Also it is the "lazy" way , LOL, The 4 's already know.
Last couple years in (and then 4 years in the Guard) I refused many E-5 boards to stay a Spec 4 I did not want all the bogus performance reviews,baby-sitting privates ,having your balls put in a jar, etc. God. if a new E-2 disrespected me in an official capacity(or even off duty in a serious way ) , they would find out real quick, which side toast is buttered on and who butters it. I carried some weight in unit , and off-duty, and off post. plus I was a BAMF. Would have been a bad idea to cross me, I have had to explain that nicely to such persons, a few privates (even a couple Lt.'s LOL) before . They fell in line or they were basically started on the way out the Army. Such people need to corrected quick because they will not change otherwise , And if you don't so something that soldier is probably going to step on their dicks to the wrong people, or phuck up, and will be out the door.
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Well back in the 60's and 70's he would spend a lot of time on KP and guard duty
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Drop for push ups NOW or meet SP4"nutjob" later
I WAS Sp4 "nutjob"Scouts are tight FOR A REASON.
I WAS Sp4 "nutjob"Scouts are tight FOR A REASON.
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Such a blatant show of disrespect must be dealt with immediately, quickly, and with direct brim to brim , eye ball to eye ball motivational manner..Everyone but this E2s fire team, or squad leader is dismissed, for a heart to heart discusion.
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I was a smart ass but not until I made E-4 and had a combat tour (not just a deployment) under my belt. That being said, even though I was a smart ass and made jokes I still followed lawful orders. Didn't matter what I had going on upstairs or back home. Work was work and fun was fun and even though my NCOs knew it was harmless and I always followed lawful orders I still got the shit smoked out of me for opening my trap. After the smoking was done we had a good laugh and I still got my ass back to work. Obviously PV2 shitbird hasn't earned that right yet so in the time being put his dick in the dirt or out of the army but one way or another this problem can be resolved pretty quickly.
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1969 Basic at Ft Jackson we had lots of people who really did not want to be there. This private would have been pulling KP, fire watch, cleaning toilets, ..... till he had a real attitude adjustment.
Another option is to let the squad or platoon handle the E2. Discipline the entire unit for the attitude of this individual. Extra tasks, pre-PT test (run laps, do push-ups..). Extra patrols, guard duty...
Another option is to let the squad or platoon handle the E2. Discipline the entire unit for the attitude of this individual. Extra tasks, pre-PT test (run laps, do push-ups..). Extra patrols, guard duty...
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This is a very difficult subject. If you are the E5 you must discourage this behavior immediately (albeit respectfully). I faced this situation on a number of occasions when I was a squad leader on prior enlistment (1988 - 1996). It isn't easy to do, particularly when many of the soldiers are your friends, but it is absolutely necessary to correct this behavior. If this isn't dealt with, your soldiers will begin to think that this is appropriate behavior and it will become the norm, and discipline will become lax jeopardizing the unit.
As an example, I am currently deployed as a surgeon on an FRST at a FOB in Afghanistan; our Detachment Sergeant is extremely lax with our enlisted soldiers, and our commander has been complacent with this. As a result 6 months into the deployment, they feel at ease being disrespectful to all members of the team by means of smart remarks, eye rolls, insubordination, etc. For example, a specialist challenged our orthopedic surgeon about whether or not he should perform a surgery on a combat injured patient. While I don't think it is out of malice, their behavior is inappropriate and unchecked. Our soldiers sleep in frequently and spent their day watching TV, Youtube, and playing video games. When they are given reading assignments for educational lectures they frequently neglect to complete them. Due to the complacencies of the command and breakdown of discipline, ultimately mistakes are made that compromise the mission and the safety of the team. For instance, our detachment sergeant left a loaded M4 in an unsecured vehicle. It was eventually discovered by another soldier and returned. The negligent soldier faced no reprimand or disciplinary action.
So in answer to your question, take the soldier aside, counsel them on their inappropriate behavior, and assure them that if the inappropriate behavior continues they may face punitive action.
As an example, I am currently deployed as a surgeon on an FRST at a FOB in Afghanistan; our Detachment Sergeant is extremely lax with our enlisted soldiers, and our commander has been complacent with this. As a result 6 months into the deployment, they feel at ease being disrespectful to all members of the team by means of smart remarks, eye rolls, insubordination, etc. For example, a specialist challenged our orthopedic surgeon about whether or not he should perform a surgery on a combat injured patient. While I don't think it is out of malice, their behavior is inappropriate and unchecked. Our soldiers sleep in frequently and spent their day watching TV, Youtube, and playing video games. When they are given reading assignments for educational lectures they frequently neglect to complete them. Due to the complacencies of the command and breakdown of discipline, ultimately mistakes are made that compromise the mission and the safety of the team. For instance, our detachment sergeant left a loaded M4 in an unsecured vehicle. It was eventually discovered by another soldier and returned. The negligent soldier faced no reprimand or disciplinary action.
So in answer to your question, take the soldier aside, counsel them on their inappropriate behavior, and assure them that if the inappropriate behavior continues they may face punitive action.
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Had a similar incident happen as a 1SG. One of my PSG’s passed assignments to Sqd Ltd E5, who in turn gave the assignments to Sqd members. One PFC was obviously having a bad day. Turns out he was totally insubordinate and was brought to my office. Turns out he’d been diagnosed with HIV. The insubordination was his reaction and acting out. He was immediately referred to our assigned PA, to begin a process of counseling, medical assessment and treatment. Assignments were altered to accommodate his new Chronic medical condition. He’s non-deployable and like many autoimmune patients had a dramatic increase in sick call attendance. Soldiers are our most important resource. Caring for them requires, as leaders, acute attention to details. Discipline is only considered after, all facts are investigated.
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Having been in that situation many years ago, it was: "Beg your pardon, I am a bit hard of hearing" followed by "Okay, not a problem, stand fast after I dismiss everyone" After everyone else is dismissed we go into the shop office where our CW4 Platoon Leader dwelled and said Private repeated what he said in response to my order. Chief asked if the door to the office was locked and I affirmed that it was. And what followed was one of the most spectacular non-physical, low voice volume ass chewings that I had and still have ever seen and heard that was a combination of remedial physical fitness training and detailed explanation as to the error of the ways of said Private and a caution that if the situation repeats itself said Private's military service, if not ended, they would be hard pressed to see additional rank. The Private in question came away with a better understanding of what to say and what not to say when an NCO gives them an order. Said Private, by the way, became a Warrant Officer later on and retired as a CW4 themselves. I came away with a lesson learned that one doesn't always have to be loud, forceful or resort to killing trees to correct an individual in helping them to see the error of their ways.
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i would insrtuct him to report to the company commanders office at 1300hrs and have the company clerk to draw up paperwork for ucmj action disobeying a lawfuull order of an nco and derilection of duty, afterwareds i wpuld hold a mandatory meeting with my platoon to let them know this shit isnt going to slide, We work as a team and that means ladi doti and everybody
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I'm sure reading a lot of 'touchy-feely' bullshit from you newer Vets.
GySgt. Pepper had it technically correct, PO1 Gibbens had it physically correct. Nobody wants to do the crap jobs, but when you're E-1 to E-3, guess what? That's your jam! It's the dance you do. Don't like it? Gain rank or GTFO. Before securing the formation, I'd choose my senior E-3 (The most terminal rank 'Grand Old L/Cpl Of The Marine Corps' salty fuck in the unit and order him to go do it in PFC Shitbirds place... PFC gonna learn after 16:30!
GySgt. Pepper had it technically correct, PO1 Gibbens had it physically correct. Nobody wants to do the crap jobs, but when you're E-1 to E-3, guess what? That's your jam! It's the dance you do. Don't like it? Gain rank or GTFO. Before securing the formation, I'd choose my senior E-3 (The most terminal rank 'Grand Old L/Cpl Of The Marine Corps' salty fuck in the unit and order him to go do it in PFC Shitbirds place... PFC gonna learn after 16:30!
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If I out rank them I will tell them one more time then if they tell me to stick it again I will with the plt. sgt and the plt. ldr write them up if I am the plt. sgt I will process them for article 15's.
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there may be an underlying issue higher command is seeing you are not? An order is an order, you really don't have a choice and this is the time to try and decipher their reason of logic. Maybe your being tested?
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I’d explain to him what an Article 15 will do to his career. I would also restrict him to the base for a short period of time.
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'59 to '79, when I was in, it would've out of sight and taught the error of his ways!!
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Keep the Pvt and his team leader after formation, explain how the army works, afterwards write a formal counseling statement. And introduce the young man to the school of the soldier on the weekend/weekends...take his time and continue until his behavior changes...I see no reason to take this fwd to ucmj at this point. Inform psg of the corrective traing plan and carry on.
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