Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
While I did respect military bearing, I fell victim to this situation. I was ordered to participate in a unit of event, game called PushBall, basically a 5' diameter beach ball that plays similar to rugby. At the time, I was rehabbing a knee injury and second follow up surgery, and a current ankle grade 2 ankle sprain. Drs had written me a temporary level 3 pt profile to avoid activities that would put the recovery at risk. I politely asked what was involved from the E-6 I was under, he refused to answer. I politely reminded him of my drs activity restrictions with a copy of paperwork in hand. He steps away, brings over the acting First Sergeant, an E-7, and another E-7 from support, and the three of them proceed to tell me in front of several other soldiers that they are now giving me a lawful order to participate, refusing will result in an Art 15 hearing. I participated, and as a result, blew my left ACL in my left knee. When that was confirmed by an MRI a month later, and a call from my Ortho surgeon to the company asking why I was ordered to participate in the first place, those 3 NCO's started to threaten me with a second Art 15 for violating my PT profile, and other accusations. Three of the other soldiers that witnessed these NCO's order me in the first place stepped up as witnesses in my defense. Over the next 2 months, all of us ended up with Art 15s for some other issue. Cant say every insubordination is right, I can say that, depending on the chain of command, there can be a lot of damned if you do, damned if you dont, and just plain damned.
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Once upon a time the E2 would have been wall to wall counseled by a NCO. My first day in my old unit, 4-7 CAV in Germany the CSM was wall to wall counseling a PFC who had gotten a DWI. If the PFC would given him lip he probably would have been stuffed inside a claymore and then it would have been detonated! I hate to say the 80's Army was the old army but I guess it was the way things have changed.
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I did something similar in 04 in the navy. My BM1 e6 gave me an outstanding wall to wall counseling session. It worked. Things have changed and when I got out in 11 as an e5 I'd make sure there isn't something major going on, then do paperwork. Anything else opens you up to punishment yourself now.
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I am assuming that this is NOT the Marine Corps. If it were the Corps, there would be hell to pay. Every other Leatherneck would be helping to "tune up" Pvt. Schmucklefuk. Being it is most likely the Army. Send him to his room for a "time out" and take away his X-Box for a week. Just kidding. ARE YOU FRIGGING KIDDING ME ??? Set this young piss ant straight, in no uncertain terms. EMI (if there still is such a thing) comes to mind. Extra duty. Have his ass on the carpet and let him know how close he is to an entry in his SRB. Pain builds character and improves the memory. Imagine this type of garbage in a combat situation. Discipline is for EVERYONES benefit. It helps keep people ALIVE.
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I'm thinking the proper response would involve a minimum 4 mile "jog" after hours in full combat gear. Most definitely appropriate UCMJ action and a proper size [boot size] suppository. But that's just me.
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I'd pull him out of formation and have a personal gofor for the day. After I dismissed the formation He would be handed the UCMJ and directed to research every article which pertained to his insubordination. Then he would write his letter of reprimand until it met my expectations. Next formation he would read it out loud and sign it. I would then chew them all out for allowing one of their own to be so ignorant and stupid.
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To “CPL (no name) who said the private should be given a chance to explain his insubordination, I say - What?
The private already told the sergeant to shove it and you think the sergeant should “Mommy” him? If he was told once and refused, then told again and tells the sergeant to shove it, charge him with insubordination and let the chips fall where they may. There’s no “strike three”.
The private already told the sergeant to shove it and you think the sergeant should “Mommy” him? If he was told once and refused, then told again and tells the sergeant to shove it, charge him with insubordination and let the chips fall where they may. There’s no “strike three”.
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Although I never experienced this type of blatant disobedience, I would have snatched him out of formation and straightened out the attitude problem first, followed by a Captain's Mast under Article 15. The straightening technique would have been determined by when and where we happened to be located at the time i.e. at sea, homeport or port of call. But it would have been a significant emotional event, I can guarantee that.
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Years back, (about '74) I was an E-4 in the Navy. Boatswains Mate. I had a kid that defied almost every order given him. Back then, we had a "procedure" known as "lay forward to the Bosuns Locker" Everyone onboard sort of knew you didn't get called there for a social occasion. I had this kid escorted to that place, and once there, the hatch was dogged. What happened next was that the person evidently, "fell up a ladder". It never took more than one visit to get him/them in line. Nowadays, I'm guessing the Navy no longer tolerates this kind of thing. But it sure did work.
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Disrespect to an NCO and insubordination. Put it on paper, explain to them they will do the task you have ordered them to do because it's their duty to obey all lawful orders. If they fail to do it or continue to bite back, put it on paper again and recommend UCMJ for the individual. Then pursue admin separation if their attitude doesn't change.The military has enough problems than to deal with individuals who clearly can't adapt to the military lifestyle. Of all the issues in my life, I never let it affect my professional interactions with superiors. What does it say about our military now that FNG's come in and start stomping on leaders from the get go. I don't believe a bad marriage is an excuse to disrespect people or that there is any excuse that justifies that kind of behavior but I am pretty aggressive when it comes to perceived slights.
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