Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Immediate counselling is the answer. Something that goes into their jacket for the whole time they are in that unit.
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I just want to know wtf a senior E5 is. I'm pretty sure that is still a junior NCO
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Is this the first incident? What has been the PV2s prior performance? Is this out of character? With these questions answered You can then frame an appropriate response. If the first offense, release the rest of the formation. Get a reliable witness to be in the area (sad that it has come down to this), put PV2 at parade rest and tell him to keep his c#^k holster shut. Tell him he was completely out of line and then future episodes will be dealt with quickly and appropriately. Review the performance standards for the task set out for him, then have him back brief you. When he has completed the task you will personally inspect to ensure it has been completed to your standards. After completing the initial task, as long as it takes, explain the PV2s position within the unit and that his conduct was unacceptable. Further instances should be addressed with progressive discipline maybe starting with corrective training which will take place on the PV2's own time.
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This was an issue for me whenever getting a new soldier into my platoon. They would see a 5’2” woman with freckles and red hair tell them to do something, not a NCO. They would be told to stand fast and reminded quickly that they in the wrong in strong and determined lanquage. That soldier would be my “shadow” for awhile and shown how to be a proper soldier until I felt the soldier was deserving to be an individual again. I was lucky enough to have a platoon of great soldiers to back me up in disciplining the soldier, not physically, but letting the soldier know he was out of line.
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Lots to unpack here as they say.
What’s the Command Climate like?
Is the PV2 a problem child?
What’s the PV2s TL like (motivates/think they are a DI/a turd)?
For the sake of argument, command climate is good, PV2 has no previous discipline issues, and TL is good to go.
Everyone but TL and PV2 go execute. You two stand fast. Along with the TL we need to find out what’s going on in PV2s life to cause the outburst. I’ve seen home issues explode at work (kid(s) on their nerves, spouse does nothing but blow money and loaf, etc). More often than not, good mentoring (and follow up) fixes the issue.
Absent more info I can’t move directly to high intensity corrective training.
What’s the Command Climate like?
Is the PV2 a problem child?
What’s the PV2s TL like (motivates/think they are a DI/a turd)?
For the sake of argument, command climate is good, PV2 has no previous discipline issues, and TL is good to go.
Everyone but TL and PV2 go execute. You two stand fast. Along with the TL we need to find out what’s going on in PV2s life to cause the outburst. I’ve seen home issues explode at work (kid(s) on their nerves, spouse does nothing but blow money and loaf, etc). More often than not, good mentoring (and follow up) fixes the issue.
Absent more info I can’t move directly to high intensity corrective training.
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Inform him in front of the others while still in formation that it was not a request but a command, then ask him is he willing to suffer the consequences of refusing a direct command. This notifies the formation that your not playing games and you will take necessary steps to rectify the situation legally. He now has the choice either obedience or suffer the consequences.
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Calmly and deliberately take him to the side and choke slam him. If you're an officer you instruct the PSG to choke slam him.
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Well, I really don't know. For one thing when I was in there wasn't even anyone would have the nerve to tell the DI to shove it. Kids now a days have no respect for anyone older. Hell, they even want to call you by your first name instead of your rank. You did that when I was in you would get one shit detail after the another. Razor blading the day room comes to mind, I had to do that myself once with a gang of other boots. From personal inspection, from then on my body hair was shaved and away from the collar. Anyways we all learned about that detail. You learn or the DI would think up something worse. And, there was always something worse that their evil mines had thought up. :) So, you send this dipshit on a detail that he will learn something, like maybe not to question authority. Sending him home isn't going to teach him squat. No one ever got sent home when I was in the service, that was never in the answers. You either made him a soldier to follow orders or if you did get booted out it was less than honorable service. And, that will follow you through life. How can you get a good job with that hanging over your head? Who would want to hire you? You'll get one low paying shit job after another just because you didn't want to follow orders while in the service? How asinine can you get? Huh?? And, how can you live without HONOR. Since I got out, honor has been on the top of the list for me to follow. The jarheads say once a Marine always a Marine. While that may be true, but here's my version of that. Once in the Military, ALWAYS in the military. That followed me so far and today I celebrate my 73 birthday, no longer that dumb ass boot that joined up when he was 18 and just out of high school. And, I was only in for 4 years, and my service followed me this far, and, I don't see it changing. Honor, respect, is where it's at in my life. The thing is if more people joined the military there would be less of the crap that is going on in the civilian sector, now. And, that is where honor & respect comes in. If more civilians had it, you think all the crap that is going on now. Would still be going on? These countries that have mandatory military service don't have the grief with the civilian population like we got. And, it has to start soon here. Or we're going to go down the tubes. Even though I am now a civilian, I don't feel that way. I always say that I'm ex-military, and if you don't like the way I think or talk better get use to it because that's the way I am. Oh, and I can still dead center at 100 yards with iron sights.
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You give private shitbag some special attention. Because unfortunately you have no control over how they act but they have 100% control on how you are viewed. Make an example of them and smoke the daylights out of them. You earned your rank by putting in that hard work, don’t like some jackass try to make that look bad. Plus it shows that you don’t play any games so that Private jackasses friends don’t catch the same bs with you either
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Well that’s a sure fire way to be permanently assigned that job after his squad leader showed him how to do it
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"I am giving you a lawful order. This is not a polite suggestion. Should you fail to execute it, you are not just breaking a rule and being a rebel; you are committing a crime. Because of that, i have no problem seeing you prosecuted to the full extent of the military justice system, up to and including dishonorable discharge, which i will recommend to the Commander. Do not fuck with me on this again."
After dismissing everyone else except Amn Dickhead and his supervisor.
After dismissing everyone else except Amn Dickhead and his supervisor.
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I had a similar incident. I asked him to do a simple task then went on to my other duties. Came back after a bit and he was sitting on his dead duffle bag. I ask if he got done what I ask of him. He said no and I'm not doing it. I'm giving you a Direct Lawful Order to complete the task. He replied that I can't make him do it. If your refusing to obey my order then I will put on report under the UCMJ. Before I could do it he ran to the 1st SGT and don't know what was said and I explained to the 1st SGT but the 1st SGT sided with him. I went to personnel and submitted my paper work for retirement. I wasn't going to deal with these snot nose kids still tied to their moms apron strings, I'm done.
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I had this very thing happen. A 2nd class petty officer informed me that he was enrolled in school and would not stand his watch, I simply said, you will stand your watch as Assistant Squadron Duty Officer as assigned and relieve your shipmate on time or be placed on report. At 0130, I received a call from the on duty watch stranded informing me that he had not been relieved. I instructed him to call the super and make a duty log entry. 0630 the following morning I contacted the senior section leader who happened to be his workcenter supervisor, I advised him of the situation and that it was my intent to write him up for failure to follow a lawful order, failure to maintain a valid recall number. This AE2 was taken to captains mast and told the Commanding Officer that he had informed me that he was not going to stand the watch due to his off duty school schedule. The C.O then advised him of the punishment he decided to implement for the violation of the UCMJ, it was as severe as regulations allowed as the sailor was a E5. (AE2) and as such had shown a complete disregard for good order and discipline as well as conduct unbecoming a Petty Officer. This poor excuse of a NCO decided he wanted a court martial and according to regulations, his wish was granted, it ended his career. There is no room for malcontents in any branch of the armed forces, and no place for leadership that tolerates it. As leaders, officers or NCO's it is our duty to maintain good order and discipline and if the service member fails to change, well then it is our duty to help them find the door, their service is not needed. Just a true fact and thought
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You tell him to stand fast! not to move, go ahead and hand out the rest of the jobs,
Take him to the side for a few min and talk to him or her. at this point I would need more information, , I would first need to know is he normally like this?
is this, or is this not his normal behavior?
if it not his normal behavior , I would talk to him to find out what is going on in his personal life.
did someone just die in his family?
is his wife having a AFFAIR?
His KID sick?
ETC
if this kid is just a normal dirt bag , I would have a very special JOB line up for him, if he refuse to do the normal job I asked.
there always cleaning of the shit tanks needing done.
there are those jobs are just waiting for a kid like him.
then of course there your Standard Counseling,
when Counseling a jJunior Member always have a witness with you when you are Counseling.
you know the drill, you start with the verbal,
then go to written page 7 documentation, showing he been counseled, depending on the service hit them with that Captain Mast or Artical 15 it usually Straightens them right out, nothing like hitting them in the pocket book to make them think twice .
Take him to the side for a few min and talk to him or her. at this point I would need more information, , I would first need to know is he normally like this?
is this, or is this not his normal behavior?
if it not his normal behavior , I would talk to him to find out what is going on in his personal life.
did someone just die in his family?
is his wife having a AFFAIR?
His KID sick?
ETC
if this kid is just a normal dirt bag , I would have a very special JOB line up for him, if he refuse to do the normal job I asked.
there always cleaning of the shit tanks needing done.
there are those jobs are just waiting for a kid like him.
then of course there your Standard Counseling,
when Counseling a jJunior Member always have a witness with you when you are Counseling.
you know the drill, you start with the verbal,
then go to written page 7 documentation, showing he been counseled, depending on the service hit them with that Captain Mast or Artical 15 it usually Straightens them right out, nothing like hitting them in the pocket book to make them think twice .
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first id figure out the most sorriest job to be done tell the platoon that that will be there job for next three days but I will walk out the door and let them decide if they want to do it or they going to take care of the problem of this E2 and he do what he was told or they will be doing the shit job
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1. What the fuck is a senior E-5?
2. If this really happened, start the necessary activities that get him out. That’s what he wants, clearly.
2. If this really happened, start the necessary activities that get him out. That’s what he wants, clearly.
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