Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Put the little shit in charge of leading PT, as well as a counseling. This demonstrates to him the responsibilities of leadership, and also puts him on notice that his mouth will not be tolerated. Also, find the worst shit detail you can find to keep him busy.
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"Fire Team Leader, take the rest of the Fire Team and get those tasks done....PV@ Whiner stand fast and do not move until told to do so"
Then walk away and leave them there standing at attention, I'd leave them out there for at least an hour or so...with the Fire Team Leader checking on them at a distance to ensure compliance.
Return with the Squad Leader and a counseling statement filled out with the following recommendations
1- Because of the refusal to do the job.......Seven days extra training after hours, centered around the task they refused to do with the minimum equipment necessary to accomplish that job..... (hand scissors in order to cut the grass)
2- Because of the attitude shown and wording used to you......30 days of additional training at that specific task (if they refused to mow the grass, they will be given that task every day specifically)
3- Then comes the "Magic Bullet Counseling statement"....A statement on it spelling out the articles of the UCMJ you plan to charge them with if they ever do this again..... a company grade Art-15 (Captains Mast) in order to reduce them in rank and take money out of their pocket for disobeying the directions given to them by a senior ranking NCO in charge of them. This used to include a statement that they would be recommended for a 30 day stay in "Charlies Chicken Farm" (Custodial Correction Facility....or a Base Correctional internment facility)
Then walk away and leave them there standing at attention, I'd leave them out there for at least an hour or so...with the Fire Team Leader checking on them at a distance to ensure compliance.
Return with the Squad Leader and a counseling statement filled out with the following recommendations
1- Because of the refusal to do the job.......Seven days extra training after hours, centered around the task they refused to do with the minimum equipment necessary to accomplish that job..... (hand scissors in order to cut the grass)
2- Because of the attitude shown and wording used to you......30 days of additional training at that specific task (if they refused to mow the grass, they will be given that task every day specifically)
3- Then comes the "Magic Bullet Counseling statement"....A statement on it spelling out the articles of the UCMJ you plan to charge them with if they ever do this again..... a company grade Art-15 (Captains Mast) in order to reduce them in rank and take money out of their pocket for disobeying the directions given to them by a senior ranking NCO in charge of them. This used to include a statement that they would be recommended for a 30 day stay in "Charlies Chicken Farm" (Custodial Correction Facility....or a Base Correctional internment facility)
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I do miss telling them let’s discuss it out side a little wall to wall counseling isn’t all that bad. Seriously though with today’s limitations on discipline it bed to dismiss everyone except him and his squad leader. You want someone present during counseling. Break out the paperwork ( which I strongly dislike but is necessary) write it up along with what corrections must be made. Verbally counsel him and is squad leader. Inform him the paperwork will go away if he does an about face otherwise it will be escalated. Have his squad leader pT the fuck out him while you supervise. I prefer in house discipline however UMCJ would dictate that a summarized article 15 for insubordination would be the next penalty if the troop persists. If you want to be by the book that’s what I can give you but again I personally prefer in house discipline, team should be a family discipline him like you would a son if you want the respect of a Father(leader) just my opinion and I’m a bit outdated my first enlistment starting in the 80s and all
Full metal jacket comes to mind lol
Full metal jacket comes to mind lol
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WHAT? , really you want the biggest shit details I can find? Look Gentleman ! Privat flappylip wants to show his appreciation for God ... of his understanding , His Country , his Momma , His Brothers in arms. Everyone thank Private Flappylip !
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Simple. Pass on by but do not change his mission. After formation, bring him in, have the counseling ready with your equal or higher. Tell him the circumstances from your position.counsel and advise no such actions will be tolerated. He signs the counseling with the understanding any such actions again could result in UCMJ action. Never back down, as a leader you must be honest, clear, and firm. If you demonstrate anything different, he will see sneakiness.
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Keep notes. This problem child was allowed to continue to misbehave. It will affect group moral.
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Umm... OK, this is an old question but I'll bite. This question is being asked by a CPO (Officer Candidate), do you not know the answer? I have personally seen this in the early 80's in the Army, not just by new E-2's but by E-4's and E-5's. Pathetic but times were weird back then, many were holdovers from Vietnam or Post-Vietnam who would intentionally get busted back to E-1 upon a promotion to E-5 (repeatedly) or they were from the infamous "Retraining Brigade" at Ft Leavenworth. Back then an ass whooping was appropriate, oftentimes the 1SG would personally deal with these "soldiers" himself (Infantry). In basic (Ft Benning 1979), myself and another E-2 were given an order by our drill sergeant to take the offending E-1 and drag, if necessary, the offender to the 1SG's office and guard him until the 1SG arrived (we were having a bit of a riot at the time and most everyone was drunk after their first 6 hr pass). We did just that (he was whacked on drugs after the pass). If it happened in the 1st RGR BN you'd likely be beaten severely and tossed out thay day to the 24th ID at Ft Stewart and then ART 15'd. Assuming you survived the beating, that shit was an absolute no go there.
These days such things are fretted upon, depending on the unit. In this day and age as the E-5, I would repeat the order to insure it was clear and if I got the same result I'd grab two witnesses and have them immediately to write up a sworn statements (in the Army it's a DA 2823) as to what happened (along with mine) and refer it to the squad leader or platoon sergeant. An NCO can arrest a junior soldier for disobeying an order and can direct others to "accompany" the offender to an appropriate location as previously described. If you walk away from such a situation (as I've seen done), you will lose any respect you once had. Likely an ART 15 would be the result (and a trip to CCF back then). Fortunately today's servicemembers are better quality troops overall than from the late 70's and early 80's, at least in the Army Infantry. I'm of course not knocking those who served back then - I was one of them - but you all know this shit happened who were there.
These days such things are fretted upon, depending on the unit. In this day and age as the E-5, I would repeat the order to insure it was clear and if I got the same result I'd grab two witnesses and have them immediately to write up a sworn statements (in the Army it's a DA 2823) as to what happened (along with mine) and refer it to the squad leader or platoon sergeant. An NCO can arrest a junior soldier for disobeying an order and can direct others to "accompany" the offender to an appropriate location as previously described. If you walk away from such a situation (as I've seen done), you will lose any respect you once had. Likely an ART 15 would be the result (and a trip to CCF back then). Fortunately today's servicemembers are better quality troops overall than from the late 70's and early 80's, at least in the Army Infantry. I'm of course not knocking those who served back then - I was one of them - but you all know this shit happened who were there.
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I had one of these P.O.S. . That just happened to be black.
Every thing was because he was black. I tried talking to him explaining that skin color has nothing to do with who does what.
Some days you get the good jobs other day's you get the one's that suck.
I aske him where he got these Idea's from ?
According to him that is how it is , and has always been.
I then asked him who told him all this? He said his mother back in New Jersey.
Now am the type that will jump in some's shit at the time to figure out what the problem is.
Then I go from their.
This dumb kid had been raised to think he could never get any where.
He was in my platoon, Just put with us on a duty day.
So I do not how his leadership handled him.
I tried to get him to understand that if he keep going this way. He would more than likely be kicked out.
Then reminded him that he needed to look at the skin color of all the leadership from his team leader to the B.C.
It was reparative of how the Battalion was made up. He started to think a little differently.
I was given order's out and did not se him until about for years later and he was a E-5p.
Funny if you talk and teach the facts to people some of them will do the right thing.
Regardless of skin color.
Every thing was because he was black. I tried talking to him explaining that skin color has nothing to do with who does what.
Some days you get the good jobs other day's you get the one's that suck.
I aske him where he got these Idea's from ?
According to him that is how it is , and has always been.
I then asked him who told him all this? He said his mother back in New Jersey.
Now am the type that will jump in some's shit at the time to figure out what the problem is.
Then I go from their.
This dumb kid had been raised to think he could never get any where.
He was in my platoon, Just put with us on a duty day.
So I do not how his leadership handled him.
I tried to get him to understand that if he keep going this way. He would more than likely be kicked out.
Then reminded him that he needed to look at the skin color of all the leadership from his team leader to the B.C.
It was reparative of how the Battalion was made up. He started to think a little differently.
I was given order's out and did not se him until about for years later and he was a E-5p.
Funny if you talk and teach the facts to people some of them will do the right thing.
Regardless of skin color.
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Now a days I don't know , since the rules have changed. With that said he would have been given an article15 which could have fined him And or restriction to barracks. You can give him the choice a 15 or assignment. If you could give him Extra Extra PT as well as restriction. All PT done in front of the men. While you explain to the men why not to refuse orders. But I agree with all Nip it in the BUD.
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So, THIS is what has become of a well trained and disciplined army. Sounds like a boys scout camping trip to me! Seems like discipline it not enforced or reinforced like it use to be. You can't have control of a soldier and expect them to follow instructions to a 'T', if there's no discipline. It's what our army was based on! As a matter of fact, this soldier would BE disciplined by an Article 15 punishment without a second thought, and placed on lock down.
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Explain to the young man that he is not home with mommy and daddy and that in the Army when your are given an order it's not a request. Also let them know that if this should happen again there will be disciplinary action, you only get one freebie.
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Smoke in right there. And give him the choice of do the job or get an AR15. With loss of rank & pay & extra duty.
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You can probably thank our snowflake society for this troop even thinking this would be okay. That said, this might just be the first poor choice made in his short military career. As a very young (17) new soldier I spent ten minutes locked at attention while the Ft Bragg Provost Marshal read me the riot act… no shouted it at me for a really dumb choice I made. I remember a particular phrase of his, “You are the first, and by God you’ll will be the last person to pull this stunt and NOT go straight to the stockade”. I made E-4 and earned the EIB within a year of that dumb choice. Just make sure he knows the consequences, in no uncertain terms, if he doesn’t repent (turn around, change his ways). I was ordered to spend 30-days in CCF (open door jail/boot camp redo) for it and lost 1 rank and some pay (ART-15) and this was after having made E-3 out of Basic Training.
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As a former Drill Sgt from the late 60s, I would have his ass! He will not dictate what he will and will not do to me!
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Yank him out of formation, make him stand at parade rest in from of the Top's door, and he cant go anywhere Top shows up to have the E-2 taken out and ran to death
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Put everyone else to work, then take them aside and talk to them on a personal level. Being a leader means recognizing when someone is going through something and being there to show they can trust and confide in you. If something is going on do what you can to help them through it and go do the work with them. We lead through example, not dictatorship. Dictators aren't leaders their pieces of shit.
If it's just them being a shitbag then start chapter paperwork, that has no place in the military and compromises unit cohesion and integrity.
If it's just them being a shitbag then start chapter paperwork, that has no place in the military and compromises unit cohesion and integrity.
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