Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Simple, it’s a telling it’s a NJP, Loss of rank, money and restrictions. Your E3 on below you get the shitty jobs, get busted s rank your doomed to shit jobs forever. Then the The company Gunny takes it from there.
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First have their pass privileges revoked and place them on extra training. Next on every field training exercise volunteer them to assist both the Supply Sergeant and volunteer them for KP if the Mess Sergeant actually sets up in the field. Then the motor pool can alway use extra hands on details, am I kind of getting the point across?
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First a good NCO doesn’t berate a soldier in front of his comrades. He should pull him aside after formation and see what problem he has following orders. I believe it starts in the home. If a person doesn’t respect their parents and gets away with it then it can be an issue in a structured environment..
When I went to Aeroscout school at “mother Rucker” I was singled out as not only the highest rank, but I had a few years over my classmates. Also when I was I. Flight Medic School I was selected again as the class leader. I became to realize the young troops of today were streetwise, and knew how to work the system so I had to keep a close eye on them so I wouldn't get “ghosted.”
I can also remember when they handed out “stress cards” to the soldiers. It was like a get out of jail free” card. I’m not sure if that was an Army wide thing or at a unit level.
Personally, as a good NCO, I would have counseled him and then if that didn’t work, escalated it up the chain of command.
There are just some soldiers who cannot and will not take orders because of the way they were raised. Which leads me to say if “they can’t take the heat then get out of the kitchen.” Show them the door and don’t let it hit them in the ass.
The military isn’t for everyone and it is what you make it.
When I went to Aeroscout school at “mother Rucker” I was singled out as not only the highest rank, but I had a few years over my classmates. Also when I was I. Flight Medic School I was selected again as the class leader. I became to realize the young troops of today were streetwise, and knew how to work the system so I had to keep a close eye on them so I wouldn't get “ghosted.”
I can also remember when they handed out “stress cards” to the soldiers. It was like a get out of jail free” card. I’m not sure if that was an Army wide thing or at a unit level.
Personally, as a good NCO, I would have counseled him and then if that didn’t work, escalated it up the chain of command.
There are just some soldiers who cannot and will not take orders because of the way they were raised. Which leads me to say if “they can’t take the heat then get out of the kitchen.” Show them the door and don’t let it hit them in the ass.
The military isn’t for everyone and it is what you make it.
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You calmly tell him that he will do as "requested" (ordered) or find himself doing something a lot more difficult for a lot longer time. Discipline and clear lines of authority are essential. [This reads, "a fresh E2" and then "They blatantly complain...], is this woke BS?]
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I would show junior the error of his ways by showing him a job that sucks way worse than the one he was assigned, then top it off with a corrective counseling session. I also might tell them about old school when you could catch an ass kicking for that.
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Losing some of his pay would also make his think twice about mouthing off to his superior
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I spent my first 5 years in the 82nd in the Infantry, then went to SFAS, Qcourse, and the remaining 15 years at Group, and as an Instructor at SWC.
In my career, I've seen everything from toxic leadership and hazing, to piss poor leadership, and everything in between.
One thing for certain is that the overall quality of soldiers has diminished, soldiers think the Army is a democracy, and that orders, duties, and responsibilities are suggestions and up for debate.
The above question just didn't happen, or was an absolute rarity when i joined. When it did happen, it was dealt with harshly and without hesitation. Soldiers new thier place in the pecking order, and for the most part everyone kept each other in line. I've seen my fair share of "wall to wall counselings", and tops being removed by leadership with a subsequent trip to the woodbine, if the subordinate soldier wanted to take it there. That's the way it was in the Infantry.
In SF, the majority of the team are E-6 and above, more mature, and the roles we play are completely different on the ODA. With a group of type A personalities, there is plenty of banter, but rank is respected. Cross the line, and it's big boy rules. Big boy rules are great until you realize big boy repercussions come with that.
It seems in the last few years military bearing does not exist, and the kinder more gentile Army has been taken to far.The Army is a war fighting unit, just off a 20 year 2 front war. The lessons learned from this should show that quality leadership leads the way, but the right soldiers that understand thier role in the mix is equally important.
A soldier that behaves in this manner is a problem. The question becomes is the behavior stemming from piss poor leadership, who has created an environment where the soldier feels like they are nothing, and are now lashing out, or is this just a bad apple that needs to be plucked from the tree before thier cancerous behavior spreads throughout the formation.
Ultimately the soldier needs to be pulled out of formation, and the core of the issue needs to be brought to light. If it's a product of leadership failures, Command needs to immediately correct the issue. If this is just a bad apple, a paper trail needs to be created so they can be removed from the force.
DOL
Chris sends.
In my career, I've seen everything from toxic leadership and hazing, to piss poor leadership, and everything in between.
One thing for certain is that the overall quality of soldiers has diminished, soldiers think the Army is a democracy, and that orders, duties, and responsibilities are suggestions and up for debate.
The above question just didn't happen, or was an absolute rarity when i joined. When it did happen, it was dealt with harshly and without hesitation. Soldiers new thier place in the pecking order, and for the most part everyone kept each other in line. I've seen my fair share of "wall to wall counselings", and tops being removed by leadership with a subsequent trip to the woodbine, if the subordinate soldier wanted to take it there. That's the way it was in the Infantry.
In SF, the majority of the team are E-6 and above, more mature, and the roles we play are completely different on the ODA. With a group of type A personalities, there is plenty of banter, but rank is respected. Cross the line, and it's big boy rules. Big boy rules are great until you realize big boy repercussions come with that.
It seems in the last few years military bearing does not exist, and the kinder more gentile Army has been taken to far.The Army is a war fighting unit, just off a 20 year 2 front war. The lessons learned from this should show that quality leadership leads the way, but the right soldiers that understand thier role in the mix is equally important.
A soldier that behaves in this manner is a problem. The question becomes is the behavior stemming from piss poor leadership, who has created an environment where the soldier feels like they are nothing, and are now lashing out, or is this just a bad apple that needs to be plucked from the tree before thier cancerous behavior spreads throughout the formation.
Ultimately the soldier needs to be pulled out of formation, and the core of the issue needs to be brought to light. If it's a product of leadership failures, Command needs to immediately correct the issue. If this is just a bad apple, a paper trail needs to be created so they can be removed from the force.
DOL
Chris sends.
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Gunny, for the most part, I am with you on this. But I would like to add that this is direct insubordination and requires just action as well as being made an example of to the rest which I say because making it a point to others that you are not going to put up with that BS only strngthens your stance and authority. The E2 certainly need the ding on their performance report and a trip to the First Shirt. The E2s behaviour is unacceptable and could even constitute UCMJ action, certainly dependent on the lawful order. As for the team leader, if this is a trend, then action there would be needed as well.
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Send him to a Chaplain who was prior service, preferably a prior service enlisted man. Obviously, this soldier has some personal or mental issues.
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