Posted on Jun 12, 2019
I am being told to go to PT by the command on only 4-5 hours of sleep. As a junior enlisted, how do I solve this problem?
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We have a new 1SG and new commander. The 1SG noticed one day that only 5 people in the whole company showed up to PT. Now he put out to all the platoon Sergeants that everyone must show up to PT at either the 0530 formation or the 1600 formation.
However, my section is the only one in the hospital that has a 1600-0000 shift. I am being told by my first line that the 1SG says that I have to be at the morning formation, no exceptions.
I don’t want to sound like I’m whining but at the same time it’s unfortunate that I have to explain to myself as to why this isn’t right.
As a junior enlisted I do feel stuck.
How do I bring this issue up and solve this effectively and professionally?
Also: Do you know of any Army Regulations that can support anything?
However, my section is the only one in the hospital that has a 1600-0000 shift. I am being told by my first line that the 1SG says that I have to be at the morning formation, no exceptions.
I don’t want to sound like I’m whining but at the same time it’s unfortunate that I have to explain to myself as to why this isn’t right.
As a junior enlisted I do feel stuck.
How do I bring this issue up and solve this effectively and professionally?
Also: Do you know of any Army Regulations that can support anything?
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 1688
Am I missing something? Work is from 1600-2400. PT is at 0530. That leaves approximately 10 hours between end of PT and start of shift. If you are tired after "only" 4-5 hours of sleep, there is plenty of time to "rest". There is also the possibility that the military is not for you. I can remember falling into my bunk at 0445 and getting up at 0530 to begin a full day's work. Was I tired? Yes, of course. But I did what had to be done. When I signed the enlistment papers I don't remember anything about guaranteed sleep. Just my take on the situation.
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What the hell is this? SPC Davis, you're in the Army. Not the Girl Scouts. Quit your damn whining and do your duty. Follow orders. It doesn't matter that you only had 4 or 5 hours of sleep. I am sick and tired of hearing all this whining from people who are supposed to be Soldiers. Stop it all of you.
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Why in the he'll did you enlist? Nothing more than a cry-baby-suck-a-tit! Apply for a dishonorable discharge & join up with an ANTIFA/BLM group. I was drafted & didn't run off to Canada or go to Russia & smoke pot!!! The service doesn't need your attitude, disposition or any other BS excuse. Enough time wasted on your personal problem. Go see a Chaplain!! SGT ML '71-77 US ARMY
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You go. Problem solved. There will be tougher times and these ‘small’ moments will you prepare you for those future ‘problems’. Don’t be ‘that guy’ in the company/platoon/squad’. You’re a soldier and an adult now. Move on.
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Terrible answers. But it doesn't appear that there is little that can be done to get around it. For one, it begins with the assumption that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. In fact, that does not apply in this case. It also assume that military rule is always right. In fact, this is more likely the idea of a single individual who is allowing his emotions to influence his better judgement.
Just because someone can accomplish a task under stress doesn't make it right or for their benefit. In fact, exercising with insufficient rest is detrimental to your health in many ways and can cause many sometimes serious consequences, including lowering your immune system as well as impairing brain functions such as memory, focus and concentration. It makes military personnel susceptible to unnecessary dangers they would not have experienced otherwise with sufficient rest and recuperation.
When you're tired you're going to make more mistakes, and those mistakes not only effect you, but everyone around you. Overall, this causes more harm than good. People that give these types of uniformed and uneducated orders are the ones largely responsible for the increasing number of heath claims many veteran experience during service and later on in life.
Thing is, they're 100% preventable. This may not be the appropriate venue to correct these errors, but it is certainly an opportunity to learn how to do better in the future than you are doing today or in the past.
Just because someone can accomplish a task under stress doesn't make it right or for their benefit. In fact, exercising with insufficient rest is detrimental to your health in many ways and can cause many sometimes serious consequences, including lowering your immune system as well as impairing brain functions such as memory, focus and concentration. It makes military personnel susceptible to unnecessary dangers they would not have experienced otherwise with sufficient rest and recuperation.
When you're tired you're going to make more mistakes, and those mistakes not only effect you, but everyone around you. Overall, this causes more harm than good. People that give these types of uniformed and uneducated orders are the ones largely responsible for the increasing number of heath claims many veteran experience during service and later on in life.
Thing is, they're 100% preventable. This may not be the appropriate venue to correct these errors, but it is certainly an opportunity to learn how to do better in the future than you are doing today or in the past.
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effectively and professionally... 1st, you need to keep in mind, he is issuing lawful orders. You could ask to meet with him to defend your position, but if he is adamant, then you will have to disobey a lawful order to have NJP initiated. 2nd, whereupon you can request mast according to the UCMJ. Be sure to name a sufficiently ranked individual in your chain of command to hear your case. There is a time limit within which your superiors must have you in front of that officer.
Just know that there are much worse duties that you could be pulling. Duty driver for example, is often 24 on 24 off, required to be at hand for deliveries of inter office mail during the normal work day, and at a moments notice to convey the Duty OIC, the Duty NCIOC, and even the Duty clerk, to any duty post, office, barracks, BOQ, anywhere they so desire at random times. They only promise 1 meal and 1 hour sleep while on duty.
My suggestion is get used to the new schedule, and learn to get sleep in segments; perhaps switch your sleep to AFTER PT.
Just know that there are much worse duties that you could be pulling. Duty driver for example, is often 24 on 24 off, required to be at hand for deliveries of inter office mail during the normal work day, and at a moments notice to convey the Duty OIC, the Duty NCIOC, and even the Duty clerk, to any duty post, office, barracks, BOQ, anywhere they so desire at random times. They only promise 1 meal and 1 hour sleep while on duty.
My suggestion is get used to the new schedule, and learn to get sleep in segments; perhaps switch your sleep to AFTER PT.
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"The army is only required to give you 4 hours of sleep a night, and it doesnt have to be 4 continuous hours!" I still remember my drill sergeants telling us this.
Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems like more of an issue of time management. If you're working 1600- midnight (8 hrs) then you have 16 more hours in the day in which to sleep. Change your schedule, you should be waking up around 1400 hours, and hitting the rack after that 0530 pt session, that'll get you a good 7-8 hours of sleep.
Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems like more of an issue of time management. If you're working 1600- midnight (8 hrs) then you have 16 more hours in the day in which to sleep. Change your schedule, you should be waking up around 1400 hours, and hitting the rack after that 0530 pt session, that'll get you a good 7-8 hours of sleep.
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Get with your PSG and see if he will get on board with a compromise with the 1SG. Maybe different PT times for different shifts, led by the senior NCO of those shifts. The 1SG doesn't need to micro manage. Your PSG, if on board could get the 1SG to see reason. Other good posts talk about adjusting your own hours. Obviously if you work the night shift, it sucks, but that means you work and do personal time at night, and sleep during the day. Finally, if there is a problem with individuals just not showing up to PT, then it may be a hard lesson for a little while. Bottom line, you are a Soldier, and need to Soldier up. I do think certain priorities should be aligned differently if you are not combat arms. That's my 2 cents.
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I don't remember PT as being "optional". We had to be there, drunk or sober, good night's sleep or just getting off 4 hours of firewatch. Maybe the Army is different from the Corps?
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The way it was explained to me when I pulled the same stunt. If you choose to go out and hoot with the owls, don't complain when you have to get up and scream with the eagles.
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Really? You are in the military, correct? you volunteered? you may not want to sound like you're whining but you do! God forbid you ever have to stand combat watches for 12 hours and still accomplish work. You have other hours in the day to sleep. you need to learn to adjust to what the schedule demands.
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I recommend you refrain from throwing up----Just do PT with the rest of the company---You're in the United States Army---Not the Salvation Army----What in hell are you going to do in a combat zone???
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Having worked in both FORSCOM (USASOC) and in the MEDAC I will say being a leader you have to be more creative to accomplish the mission and keep your Soldiers in mind a bit more in a hospital. Especially with COVID and my staff being worked to the bone we had to find new ways to maintain our physical fitness and still meet the mission.
I would suggest to your leadership an alternative time for PT which is what we did in our section, and our APFT average was over 270, with several soldiers getting their EFMB, Air Assault, and GAFB.
Hopefully with some reason and possibly a good censure of the Troops it can get rectified. I’d suggest talking with your first line or proposing a plan to your chain of command how off shift soldiers will maintain their readiness.
I would suggest to your leadership an alternative time for PT which is what we did in our section, and our APFT average was over 270, with several soldiers getting their EFMB, Air Assault, and GAFB.
Hopefully with some reason and possibly a good censure of the Troops it can get rectified. I’d suggest talking with your first line or proposing a plan to your chain of command how off shift soldiers will maintain their readiness.
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Suspended Profile
Just go PT and bitch about it later you’re in the military 24 hours a day
Go to PT, really it is at mosts hour to an hour and a half add in the benefit to your health. Look towards the positive.
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4-5 hours is good enough without hinder performance and thinking. Thou, 6-8 is preferable. If your lack of sleep due to duty requirement, your NCO should give you permission to do PT in the afternoon and having you report for duty at work-call formation. That is if he betting that the PL and PSgt not going to have his bacon in the morning. Usually, your NCO should have called and arranged this that night. Usually, if your PT score is high, you would not be doing PT that day. However, if you are average or lower, you will be doing PT with your favorite Buck Serge. That's what I have had done while I was still in active duty.
On the other hand, if you were out late having fun, you'll have to suck it up and pay for it. Heck, me and my whole squad came back from our outing, changed, and went to first-call formation for PT and work all day. But when it comes to lunch, we slept like a baby. In Korea, after the Super Bow party, the whole company, 1st Sgt included, were all sh** face during first-call and has to endure the rest of the day.
Getting used to minimal sleep is what you must learnt how to live with, during the invasion toward Baghdad most Soldiers and myself included went for 3 days straight with only 4-5 of sleep, average about an hour a day. I call it, "race to Baghdad". Build character, man, it's building character.
On the other hand, if you were out late having fun, you'll have to suck it up and pay for it. Heck, me and my whole squad came back from our outing, changed, and went to first-call formation for PT and work all day. But when it comes to lunch, we slept like a baby. In Korea, after the Super Bow party, the whole company, 1st Sgt included, were all sh** face during first-call and has to endure the rest of the day.
Getting used to minimal sleep is what you must learnt how to live with, during the invasion toward Baghdad most Soldiers and myself included went for 3 days straight with only 4-5 of sleep, average about an hour a day. I call it, "race to Baghdad". Build character, man, it's building character.
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I have been out of the military for 22 years, and in 15 years prior to that. What the hell happened to our military? Sleep deprivation was one thing we could count on back then.
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As a junior enlisted personnel, it shouldn't be a problem for you to explain your situation to your leader(s). If your work schedule is morning or afternoon, you may need to adjust your time to allow for PT, late evenings with friends or weekend outings, does not figure into ones personal responsibilities. Their are many places around the military, where a soldier is responsible for his\her own fitness and training for physical fitness test. Most training manuals will tell you how an exercise is to be done. The unit or organizational policy will outline the training as well as who should be in attendance of physical fitness training, all the way down to the type of PT to be conducted should a soldier be medically limited to certain exercises. It would seem, your problem can be fixed and it would most likely involve you being committed to doing what is expected of you, even if you have to do it on your own, before or after work. You can come up with your own solution, but keep in mind, it would need to be heard and agreed upon, by you supervisor or someone directly involved in your chain of command.
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You have a problem with a 5:30 PT formation? That was perfectly normal when I was in. Even after all night CQ duty, 2 hours of guard duty in the middle of the night, a 12 hour overnight shift in the border ops center, a late night getting gear and uniforms squared away or just partying with buddies into the wee hours of the morning. Sounds like your not Army material. Do your time stay out of trouble and find a new career.
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Manage your time better, suck it up, and realize that this too will pass.
I see this was originally posted a year ago and that you were promotable -- hopefully it all worked out for you without too much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I see this was originally posted a year ago and that you were promotable -- hopefully it all worked out for you without too much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
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For now just go to the one that doesn't conflict with your duty shift. Ensure that when they take muster for PT you are acounted for. If the person you report to in the hospital is other than the person you report to for PT make sure that person knows. Adjust your person schedule around PT and duty. If your section rotates the time they stand duty, just suck it up. You'll be rotating out of your problem, and someone else will be rotating in. If sections don't rotate shifts you could always request a change of section. They might say no, but if you don't ask you are saying no. Either way it may be very inconvenient, may be very difficult to do you best, but I think your orders that you are complaining about are still legal, and you could be setting yourself up for a world of hurt, starting with some NJP if you don't comply.
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Show up, do PT. allow your Squad/ PLT/Section Leadership try and convince the 1SG to adjust his views
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As I re-read this thread, I can't help but notice... wow, there are a lot of people willing to shout "old school" as they justify not taking care of their Soldiers. Beating your chest about how hard-core you are isn't a substitute for leadership.
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While stationed in Germany there were many PT formations and for PT we were in our clubbing clothes. Rolling through the hole in the gate crossing the farmers field just in time for roll call. Our first sergeant did care what you were wearing. BUT if not in PT clothes you were in the front of the pack and no falling out to puke. Indian sprints. Motto: adapt and overcome.
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I think it would be best for both parties if you requested a discharge because you are not able to adapt to military discipline and regimentation. Second choice would be for you to request reclassification into the Double 0 Grunt world where you could work 24 hour shifts everyday and still make all required formations or get kicked out for the good of the army. The military force of the USA is not designed to be a democracy where you can be given all the individual pleasures you want.
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Why not ask to move afternoon PT to 1430 or 1500? Barring that, I assume their are NCOs on your shift; why not suggest they run a PT formation? Seems to me this is looking for a solutions that meet both needs of the Army (your physical training) and supporting the important work you do. Presenting these options to your leadership in a respectful and constructive way shows that your on the team and developing the skillset to problem solve and become a leader yourself.
I would hope that they would listen, but you have to understand they are acting within their responsibliites and that their is no recourse but soldier up if they decide not to alter their decision. I don't know the circumstances, but try to put yourselves in shoes of the leadership. One of their obligations is to maintain the physical health of the force IOT prepare for the stress of combat (and the enormous stress casualties bring to a hospital), meet standards, mitigate having to separate, counsel, and run an overwieght program for non-complying soldiers, and most of all to look out for your individual health--as a health worker you already know that poor physical condition translates into poor mental condition and job performance decrement.
I would hope that they would listen, but you have to understand they are acting within their responsibliites and that their is no recourse but soldier up if they decide not to alter their decision. I don't know the circumstances, but try to put yourselves in shoes of the leadership. One of their obligations is to maintain the physical health of the force IOT prepare for the stress of combat (and the enormous stress casualties bring to a hospital), meet standards, mitigate having to separate, counsel, and run an overwieght program for non-complying soldiers, and most of all to look out for your individual health--as a health worker you already know that poor physical condition translates into poor mental condition and job performance decrement.
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