Posted on May 9, 2016
If a solder's room is dirty and he's on leave, can the chain of command box his personal items up as punishment?
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It sounds like failure on the squad leaders part to let the SM go on leave with a trashed room. No, you can not box up his personal items as punishment.
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Punishment of Servicemembers is a FORMAL process as defined under the UCMJ.
While on Leave, he's on his time, not the governments'. It's understandable that room inspections are still going on, however, we must remember the purpose of the inspection as well. You used the phrase "a little dirty." It's something that can be resolved when he gets back via informal process.
Boxing up belongings would need to serve a specific purpose. Unless that can be defined, as in "Make the dwelling sanitary enough to live in" it's hard to justify from a leadership standpoint.
SGM Erik Marquez notes the purpose of securing the property, which is completely reasonable. I would however point out that a (unshared) room is secure. I agree wholeheartedly with his post and merely provide that as a caveat.
While on Leave, he's on his time, not the governments'. It's understandable that room inspections are still going on, however, we must remember the purpose of the inspection as well. You used the phrase "a little dirty." It's something that can be resolved when he gets back via informal process.
Boxing up belongings would need to serve a specific purpose. Unless that can be defined, as in "Make the dwelling sanitary enough to live in" it's hard to justify from a leadership standpoint.
SGM Erik Marquez notes the purpose of securing the property, which is completely reasonable. I would however point out that a (unshared) room is secure. I agree wholeheartedly with his post and merely provide that as a caveat.
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SGM Erik Marquez
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - Just as I thought,, you are bringing emotions and likely some personal bad experiences into this.
Again, if you are willing and able, please read what I posted, and not what you want it to say. Not what you think Im saying.
I assure you, what I wrote does not state or imply what you are saying here in this thread..
Notice I stated some basic and realistic examples of when and why an SM might need to have his room opened up.... If you disagree with what I SAID.. then make that point specifically.
EDIT: I see you did address a single thing I actually wrote.. Securing of property before leave.
I can only assume a complete lack of experience would lead you to have such a position. Only a complete lack of understanding (or refusal to see reality as it is) could lead you to not understand the realities of barracks management they way they are, not how you want them, but the use, assignment of, management of the limited resources available known as the "Barracks"
I wish you the best Sgt, but it has become clear you do not understand the issues your attempting to discuss. I think your believes are heartfelt, and honest in your mind. Simply not grounded in the reality leadership must work within while managing barracks.
Again, if you are willing and able, please read what I posted, and not what you want it to say. Not what you think Im saying.
I assure you, what I wrote does not state or imply what you are saying here in this thread..
Notice I stated some basic and realistic examples of when and why an SM might need to have his room opened up.... If you disagree with what I SAID.. then make that point specifically.
EDIT: I see you did address a single thing I actually wrote.. Securing of property before leave.
I can only assume a complete lack of experience would lead you to have such a position. Only a complete lack of understanding (or refusal to see reality as it is) could lead you to not understand the realities of barracks management they way they are, not how you want them, but the use, assignment of, management of the limited resources available known as the "Barracks"
I wish you the best Sgt, but it has become clear you do not understand the issues your attempting to discuss. I think your believes are heartfelt, and honest in your mind. Simply not grounded in the reality leadership must work within while managing barracks.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SGM Erik Marquez - No. You are saying the occupied space does not belong to the SM. That is legally incorrect. An occupied space does in fact LEGALLY "belong" to the person occupying it and there are expectations of privacy that come with it. The CoC has limited POWER when it comes to inspecting said space, but the occupant has RIGHTS regarding it.
Presented a different way, can you enter any soldier's room (within your CoC) at any time? No, absolutely not. There are very strict limits of when and how you can exercise that authority, otherwise "evidence" you find becomes inadmissible.
Presented a different way, can you enter any soldier's room (within your CoC) at any time? No, absolutely not. There are very strict limits of when and how you can exercise that authority, otherwise "evidence" you find becomes inadmissible.
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SGM Erik Marquez
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - SGT, again you are mistaken. I do not understand how a smart, articulate NCO like yourself could be so confused, misinformed or otherwise off base. It seems you are making statements based on what you want it to be, not what it is.
Clearly your opinion is yours, valuable and honest. But you do not understand the topic your discussing.
You are incorrect on the authority issues, the requirement for leadership to inspect, the requirement for barracks management to inspect.
I agree all of that can be managed with utmost respect (that is earned) from the leadership to the SM.
And a unit that handles the daily required room check with respect and consideration of the occupants will overall foster a better unit wellbeing. But the authority to maintain good order and discipline, standards and policies is very real. Very clear, and has few restrictions contrary to your personal opinion.
Here is a standard Army Corps policy that may help you understand where your opinion differs from reality as it stands
http://www.hood.army.mil/leaders/policies/Corps/new/15_ServiceMemberQuartersLivingStandards.pdf
Clearly your opinion is yours, valuable and honest. But you do not understand the topic your discussing.
You are incorrect on the authority issues, the requirement for leadership to inspect, the requirement for barracks management to inspect.
I agree all of that can be managed with utmost respect (that is earned) from the leadership to the SM.
And a unit that handles the daily required room check with respect and consideration of the occupants will overall foster a better unit wellbeing. But the authority to maintain good order and discipline, standards and policies is very real. Very clear, and has few restrictions contrary to your personal opinion.
Here is a standard Army Corps policy that may help you understand where your opinion differs from reality as it stands
http://www.hood.army.mil/leaders/policies/Corps/new/15_ServiceMemberQuartersLivingStandards.pdf
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SGM Erik Marquez - Have you actually read the policy you linked? It EXPLICITLY references Privacy, and the LEGAL requirements of the Command when it comes to SEARCHES & SEIZURES, as compared to Inspections, which are a different category.
A unit policy, despite your Opinion is NOT law, and DOES NOT trump a Servicemembers 4a Rights. Yes Inspections can be completed, periodically, even daily. But going into their spaces and boxing up their stuff when it is already "secure" (behind a locked door) when the Command Policy you linked explicitly allows for "gear adrift" (like TVs, Posters, personal belongings) is stretching both the Spirit and Intent.
That's where I get pissed at the micromanagement. This isn't "well being." This is screwing with people. This is caring more about the Machine than caring about the People. That doesn't support mission. That isn't Discipline.
A unit policy, despite your Opinion is NOT law, and DOES NOT trump a Servicemembers 4a Rights. Yes Inspections can be completed, periodically, even daily. But going into their spaces and boxing up their stuff when it is already "secure" (behind a locked door) when the Command Policy you linked explicitly allows for "gear adrift" (like TVs, Posters, personal belongings) is stretching both the Spirit and Intent.
That's where I get pissed at the micromanagement. This isn't "well being." This is screwing with people. This is caring more about the Machine than caring about the People. That doesn't support mission. That isn't Discipline.
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Search and Seizure (which is essentially what you are advocating) has specific requirements and ramifications. Only a Commander (or acting commander), military judge or military magistrate can authorize the above. Search and Seizure requires you to have probable cause with few exceptions and requires a chain of custody. Do you want that much trouble? Just wait until the person returns and then have the NCO/Sr.NCO handle it. You don't want to get in a situation where you are accused of an illegal search and seizure (because you didn't go through the commander, military Judge or military Magistrate).
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MAJ (Join to see)
Hilarious. I just looked at the dates on this thread and realized with some amount of chagrin that I just commented on a 4 year old thread. Why did RallyPoint put this up in my current home page? So weird.
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it Also depends on how access was gained to that room while the soldier was gone. You can’t as a barracks manager just open whatever room you want. You need approval from the chain
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You can do that if the soldier is incapacitated and / or deceased. You can’t do it to punish someone. And it had to be done with the approval of the commander and it had to be ran by an OIC with the help of supply. Psgs or sl etc cannot do it
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I've been retired for almost 50 years now and know that things change. Back in the day, we held "Health & Comfort" inspections to ensure individuals did not slide down into a situation like that described.these were held by the senior SNCO for whom the individuals worked for.
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So this first part is mostly rhetorical, but define a little dirty. Did he forget to take his trash out before leaving, or does it look like someone set off a bomb in his room? Because if it's a full trash can, take the trash out, and tell the SM to take care of things next time. If his room is a complete disaster, then yea, probably ought to box his stuff up till he gets back.
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If his wall unit is unsecured, items that can easily be pocketed are left out, then it's done for security reasons. I've seen it done during room inspections.
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This kind of thing can sour a SM on their "leadership." It did me. Once, I had an early morning flight. After I was done, I had to quickly change to my regular duty and report to my section. A bit later, I was summoned to remove the "Fire Hazard" clutter from my room. The hazard? A Nomex flight suit laying on my bunk. These things can be done but one must ensure that they are warranted. Lost a lot of respect for those over me that day.
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