Posted on Feb 9, 2014
If a soldier isn't competent enough to set up their own ASU, why keep them in the service?
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Somebody tell me something, I know this isn't as important as some of the discussions we have but I think it has to be addressed. If a soldier isn't competent enough to set up their own ASU (minus the look over by their leadership to check for minor adjustments), why are they in the service if they can't complete such a task?
Something so simple especially with all the technology, the infamous AR 670-1, and almost EVERYTHING being available provided by Google. I understand we're suppose to be there for our battle buddies and our soldiers, but DAMN! These soldiers act like they never learned how to set up their uniforms in basic training. Give me your input and opinion on this matter because I kind of find it pathetic.
Something so simple especially with all the technology, the infamous AR 670-1, and almost EVERYTHING being available provided by Google. I understand we're suppose to be there for our battle buddies and our soldiers, but DAMN! These soldiers act like they never learned how to set up their uniforms in basic training. Give me your input and opinion on this matter because I kind of find it pathetic.
ASU
Training
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 24
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<p>For years, I posted the quote below (Reasons for Human Failure) at the bottom of all of my e-mails. I did this for various reasons but, I did it specifically as a reminder to myself because of the observed incompetence displayed by some of my peers and superiors throughout my career. </p><p><br></p><p>So, after reading the header/title of this discussion and all of the responses, I had to share it. I believe in taking responsibility for your actions or the lack thereof. Lastly, it is important to understand that incompetence has consequences which affect all ranks and all MOSs alike. </p><p><br></p><p>Reasons for Human Failure: <br>When standards do not exist -Command Failure. <br>When standards exist and are not known -Training Failure. <br>When standards exist, are known, and not enforced -Leader Failure. <br>When standards exist, are known, and not followed -Individual Failure.</p><p><br></p>
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CW2(P) (Join to see)
Rarely do you ever see something broken down so well. Blew my mind. Thank you MSG Hendricks.
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It is one thing to have the all of the information at hand, but there never is a substitute for experience. Younger Soldiers simply do not have the experience of repeatedly setting up their uniforms, the way that some of us have.
At the same time though, it is the responsibility of us as leaders to guide and mentor these Soldiers to set them up for success. Rather than look down on them for something they can't do, buck up as a leader and show them how it's done.
At the same time though, it is the responsibility of us as leaders to guide and mentor these Soldiers to set them up for success. Rather than look down on them for something they can't do, buck up as a leader and show them how it's done.
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SSG (Join to see)
MSG Hawkins, to be blunt I am insulted by your false insinuation that I would have the Soldier cleaning toilets. I am NOT that type of NCO. What I WOULD do is exactly what I stated above. I would SHOW the Soldier or junior NCO what right looks like. I would take the TIME, as an NCO is suppose to do, to help that Soldier as well as point them in the right direction in the regulation. Not every Soldier or NCO learns in the exact same way. On a professional level, I rely on my fellow Supply Sergeants for things I may not know or understand just as I am more than willing to help them out because we are all a TEAM here. I would do the same for my Seniors too.
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SSG (Join to see)
ill chime in with this... SFC Busko, it is not right to say that the MSG is "toxic" and "attempting to browbeat individuals without
knowing a single thing about them". Using your own description, you fall into that category.(unless you both DO know each other, then disregard...) We do all have opinions and are free to express them, AS WE ARE ALL AWARE, (im not trying to preach to ANYONE here) but she expressed her opinion, right or wrong in someone else's eyes, she doesn't deserve to be berated for expressing hers either. Two cents deposited and remarks complete.
knowing a single thing about them". Using your own description, you fall into that category.(unless you both DO know each other, then disregard...) We do all have opinions and are free to express them, AS WE ARE ALL AWARE, (im not trying to preach to ANYONE here) but she expressed her opinion, right or wrong in someone else's eyes, she doesn't deserve to be berated for expressing hers either. Two cents deposited and remarks complete.
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1SG (Join to see)
Thank you SSG Broadbent for understanding and illustrating my point. If it doesn't sound any better coming from me toward the MSG, then how does she think it sounds directed towards others?
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SSG (Join to see)
... im not trying to jump in the middle, im just saying that its going both ways... one cannot say the other is making unjust statements while letting their own fly. But I appreciate the polite/professional response. thank you SFC
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People do still make mistakes, its good to have a second set of eyes regardless.<br><br>I remember a Vietnam era SGM who had a "5" on his NCOPD ribbon mistakenly thinking the 1SGs course was a level of the NCOES.<br><br>More recently I have seen:<br><br>Senior NCOs with the wheat growing down on their ASUA. <br><br>A very senior NCO with the stars on his Iraqi Campaign medal pointing downwards. <br><br>A COL walking around with his name tapes reversed on his ACUs.<br><br>A 1SG with no unit patch.<br><br>Sometimes Murphy doesn't care how well you know AR 670-1. Shit happens to the best of us. <br><br>Here is what I want to know.....how many of us males actually know how to setup a females ASUs and vice versa?<br><br>Every board I have sat on the last few months, male NCOs of female Soldiers have been completely lost when asked about how they assisted in setting up their subordinates uniform.<br><br><br>
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CPT (Join to see)
I've spent my entire time in the service as an Infantryman, so I've never had female Soldiers. BUT, you make a great point, Master Sergeant. I shall correct myself.
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SFC John Brooks
MSG, I agree, Murphy gets us all at some point. I once was in a hurry leaving the house on very little sleep thanks to my newborn, I threw my uniform on and raced out the door. I walked into the Pentagon, went out on a few service requests, then went to grab coffee. It wasn't until I was heading back toward my office that I glanced down at myself and realized I'd grabbed the wrong uniform, this one had NOTHING on it, no name tapes, no patches, no rank. I was in the Joint Staff corridors at the busiest time of the morning, 2 corridors away from my office. That had to be the worst walk of shame I'd ever experienced, imagine if SMA Chandler had just happened to be walking through as I tried to make it back to safety. Thankfully, I keep a spare set of patches and name tapes at my desk so I was able to fix the problem.<br><br>The saddest part about the entire situation, though, was that NOBODY said anything to me. Not one member of any service or rank stopped me, and I passed by a LOT of NCOs in that 2 hour time span.<br>
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SFC (Join to see)
Good call MSG! Now that we have female 13M's I need to brush up on the female ASU. I need to update my DA photo as well.
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To be completely honest... I graduated basic Feb. 2010 and Did not ONCE put together my dress greens. I never put them on in Basic because I graduated in my ACUs. I didn't wear them in AIT, because the graduation where I was going to wear them, I didn't attend (E-Leave). When I got to my unit, the Reg confused me, so when I asked my SGT for help, he did it for me. EVEN MY DRY CLEANERS HERE NEAR POST AUTOMATICALLY PUTS THEM ON CORRECTLY. You can't alway blame the soldier... I had to take pictures of my uniform, write measurements from the regs... take my stuff off and teach myself... I'd be in a world of hurt.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
SPC Harvey:
Thank you for your honesty, and you are not alone I ask for help. I go to those that I know are sticklers and have the gift of being meticulous.
V/R
CH (CPT) Davis
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC Harvey, you have proved my point... Good on you for taking the initiative. If more Soldiers would take a little of thier personal time to research and become educated, the NCOs responsibility of making y'all proficient would be much easier.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
As regs change, even as a Master Chief, I open the book, read, measure, try, reread, absorb and understand before I ever get to the point where I try and correct anyone else. Often in the CPO Mess, we all look at new regs and try to figure out what they say and how to make them work. Often Uniform Changes are confusing even to the most seasoned, that is why we do it as a team, not as individuals. Ask if you do not understand.
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The problem is "Practice makes Perfect". If you don't practice, it won't be perfect. Yes, this includes tasks as simple as setting up your ACUs. Some Soldiers have an intuitive knack for attention to detail, others for repetitive drill, some are naturally athletic. None of that matters though if the opportunity to practice is not there.
There used to be a time when you were lucky to get a Dress formation once a year... Stuff is pretty "Eight Up" if that's all the more often it gets done. Take it off, put it on, how high above the pocket? Where does it go on the lapel?... Practice makes perfect.
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I started out as Infantry and they are very detail orientated. You messed with your uniform then took it apart and did it all over again. Your Leadership wasn't happy until you were mistake free.
I then changed over to Airframe repairer (Aviation) and I worked with a 6 inch ruler on a daily basis. My attention to detail tunred into OCD because now I had the tool and daily means to always measure my uniform.
I personally think it is crap that someone else puts your uniform together. I can understand your NCO helping him. I say it is a Leadership failure if they don't know how to put their uniform together. It all boils down to attention to detail and pride. If I found a Soldier that had a jacked up uniform I would take them to the side and train them and their Leadership correctly.
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I think it's really sad that Soldiers can't put their own uniforms
together. Got back from my last deployment and we had an uniform
inspection almost right away. Soldiers went off to off post
establishments. The shop they went to charged them $100 and didn't even
put the ribbons on right! Whats even more sad is that SPC and NCOs who
could put uniforms together pretty well charged some of the Soldiers and didn't teach them while they did it!!
together. Got back from my last deployment and we had an uniform
inspection almost right away. Soldiers went off to off post
establishments. The shop they went to charged them $100 and didn't even
put the ribbons on right! Whats even more sad is that SPC and NCOs who
could put uniforms together pretty well charged some of the Soldiers and didn't teach them while they did it!!
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Sgt (Join to see)
Brothers i think its all of our job to take care of one another. when you go to war all you have is the man to the right and left of you.
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SSG Justo Rivera
It starts with the basics. The other day after formation I was going to inspect the my platoon. I informed my platoon leader of my intentions and this is what she said. " I don't think we should be doing inspections". I asked why and she said. Well the other platoons aren't doing it and I hear things from soldiers like why are we doing it and no one else is? After Tactfully explaining myself that I really did not care what the other platoons do or what is happening with the E4 mafia. I respectfully walked away. My platoon inspection is part of my job in evaluation the platoon. Needless to say that, this will not happen again. How can they take care of their uniforms if we are not allowed to inspect and correct any issues?
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We're all one team and need to work together for mission accomplishment. So battle buddies do need to have each other's back in everything they do to make sure they're set up for success.
However, I'm with you 100% because a lot can be said of a person who's independent, self sufficient, and self-motivated enough to succeed. As you said, there are too many resources out there to take care of one's self. And CSM Harris' comment is totally true, but as long as you understand the uniform regs but just want a helping hand getting it perfect to the smallest detail (knowing what right looks like is key so you can confirm it's accurate) then go ahead and take advantage of off post places.
Once it's done once, you're pretty well set. With the exception of awards because the amount and rack sizes will change every few years, all other pins never move. I've been able to strip my uniform, take it to the cleaners, get it back, and find the same holes the pins were in previously and stick them right back in. A quick measure to make sure I got it right and it's set back up in a matter of a few minutes.
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CW2(P) (Join to see)
Absolutely correct. If you know the regs and want an extra set of eyes to confirm and or correct minor deficiencies, there should be no problem with battle buddies helping out. But that look over by someone else is a given. Even though I'm meticulous and have a tad bit of OCD, there's no shame in my game asking for a second and third look over.
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Have squad level uniform inspections every once in a while, even if it's just an on-the-hanger inspection. As long as the uniforms are inspected and corrected properly, the soldiers should get the hang of doing this after a couple times. When it comes time for the real thing, it should take no more than a quick lookover the day prior to make sure their uniforms are in order. I also like to charge them with inspecting each other's uniforms before I even get there. If your buddy looks ate up, your squad looks ate up.
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<p>SGT Robinson:</p><p><br></p><p>Welcome to the world of Leadership, it comes in three stages.</p><p><br></p><p>If they are not willing and able you parent them.</p><p><br></p><p>If they are willing and not able you mentor them.</p><p><br></p><p>If they are willing and able, you guide them.</p><p><br></p><p>I will share with you in my thirty years of serving; I look back in my career, and it is development.</p><p><br></p><p>It is called pay forward I look at how I came up on big shoulders. Every rank you make is because others poured into you.</p><p><br></p><p>It is not about you, it is about pouring into the next generation and overall we all sworn to an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p>
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
<p>SGT Robinson:</p><p><br></p><p>Have you seen the movie "Saving Private Ryan? When I joined in 1984 at 17, it was "Saving Private Davis!</p><p><br></p><p>Unfortunately when you look at Leaders, you do not see all of the shoulders that they stand on. I thank God, for those that cared enough to protect me, correct me, challenge me, and provide understanding when it was needed.</p><p><br></p><p>When you make rank, you do not eat your young!! Although, many do, you remember that all took a sacred oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States of America.</p><p><br></p><p>V/R</p><p><br></p><p>CH (CPT) Davis</p>
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CPT (Join to see)
One of the most important lessons I took from OCS was, as a Leader, it is my responsibility to develop my subordinates.
CPT Davis; great comment/advice, and I agree.
CPT Davis; great comment/advice, and I agree.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
CPT Shuster:
Respectfully, it is vital that we pour into our troops, and we provide them with challenging assignments and awaken their purpose.
It is important to create an environment for acceptance. True leaders develop and affirm their subordinates to develop and mentor the next generation.
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