Posted on Apr 4, 2014
SFC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
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I've only seen very few officers being told that they failed at their job, but still see them pin on CPT bars later and be enroute to take a company after C/3. I've seen new NCOs  have more authority over people then the officer that was in front of the formation.  I know the machine keeps turning no matter what screw, nut, or bolt you put in it, but should we have a way to decomission a young officer quicker to junior enlisted ranks through trends and evaluations rather then continue to give more then half of them more as they go forward? 

I've seen these officers get seperated from the force with minimum to pay back to the military, if any at all.  I've seen West Point grads  told to kick rocks after entering into the ranks, and left with a great education and no fullfilled obligation.  What are your thoughts?

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Responses: 20
CH (CPT) Heather Davis
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I disagree, I look at General Washington, General Patton, and myself included. Development takes time, failure is a part of learning and a part of development.

I look back at the thirty years I have in the Military, and I will share with you, I was not brilliant, I did not play well with others.

I did however, have a tenacity to push through obstacles, and take correction. I call it Leadership sand paper, if the LT will not quit, who are we to give up on them.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
CH (CPT) Heather Davis
>1 y
SPC Rogers, I have been enlisted twenty two years and I will share with you many make NCO and it is given to you in good trust that you will grow in the position.

I have been a Warrant Officer and a 2LT CC and I will share with you all have their own rite of passage. It is about mentorship, and leadership, and if leadership is broken it is because we are not mentoring.
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SGT Craig Northacker
SGT Craig Northacker
>1 y
How many troops did the LT get killed or wounded needlessly?
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
>1 y
I am no fan of promoting the unworthy, whether Officer or NCO. Either you cut the mustard, or you don't.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
CH (CPT) Heather Davis
>1 y
What plan of action for development do you have for those that we allowed in our forces. This is a different time, we have to mentor those that will be our future leaders.
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CPT Observer   Controller/Trainer
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I think it depends greatly on your definition of failure. The Army expects LTs to make some mistakes. After all, the only way to not make mistakes is to sit idle and not try anything new for fear of making mistakes. That being said, there are those LTs that are plain untrainable and really do not belong in the military. Graduates of USMA that don't cut it as officers should definitely have to serve out the remainder of your contracts as enlisted Soldiers, E-4.
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SFC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
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To caveat I'm doing this not for a solution but just gather information for further down the road.  To speak candidly I have a field grade officer that just isn't cutting it, and from my gatherings he has not changed for many years.  I've viewed his record and everyone reported the same from his LT days to promote ahead.  He was slotted for ILE but has chosen to retire now after being steered that way.  My boss ( a very senior field grade ) asked what should be his next course, and I gave him my two ideas.  I just care to be able to impose earlier courses of action or avenues before I'm asked again or a similar situation presents itself.
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SSG Genaro Negrete
SSG Genaro Negrete
>1 y
The assessment may not be strictly his own. It may have been a compilation of both OER statements as well as input from other leaders. It won't be SFC Jolly that gives the officer bad marks on any official documentation, but it is his job as a Senior NCO to advise the officers he works with. Specifically lieutenants, who are groomed in the more subtle ways of direct leadership by that NCO/Officer relationship. That is why they are called the "senior enlisted adviser" for what ever element it pertains to. From the platoon level, all the way up to the pentagon.
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SGT Brendan Beely
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It's not just officers.  It's system wide.  Leaders are afraid to give sub-par performers accurate reviews because it will 'hurt their career,' not realizing that in doing so the entire force is being hurt.

How many times have NCOERs come back with 'change this, don't mention that, etc.' instead of accurately reflecting that sometimes, some people are just bad at what they do.  Or even OK - it seems like an endemic curse that every evaluation must shine and be filled with puppies and rainbows.  Fact is, some people do the bare minimum.  Some people are just bad at what they do.  Until the entire system changes, it will not get any better.
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SSgt Boyd Herrst
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Why promote if they are not ready? Eh possibly endanger lives?
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SPC Nate Lamphier
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If you are not meeting the requirements to be "proficient" in your position, by no means should you be rewarded with more rank/pay. This isn't just my feeling towards officers or enlisted Soldiers, this is on the civilian side as well. I'll take this further and say that PV1's shouldn't be promoted based on their TIG. I know that some are not, but too often I saw that guys who were not "good at their job" were promoted because the attitude was they are just moving to the rank of PV2. Personally, I don't think there is any way that I should have been able to enter as a Specialist.

My opinion is that just because I have a bachelors degree does not mean I can now be placed in a leadership role by Army standards. I proved nothing by Army standards in an Army setting that indicated I was capable of leading. Pay off my student loans (thank you Army!) yes but start me at the bottom so I can learn everything and have an appreciation of those ranks that I am now leading. From my short time in the Military (only a three year enlistment) I could definitely tell the officers who had a Military background whether that was coming from a Military college or were enlisted first, those guys had an understanding/knowledge of the Army way. Those who didn't, not saying they were terrible people, but were not on the previously mentioned level. I should note that I'm not saying there are not a lot of officers who come directly from a public university to the Army world are not successful, respected leaders.
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MAJ Operations Officer (S3)
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This isn't an issue unique to Officers. Instead of "decommissioning" I think we need to focus on giving accurate evaluations. I saw an E6 who was relieved in country pin on E7 the following year because his leadership didn't have the intestinal fortitude to give him a negative NCOER. If a Soldier at any pay grade is failing they need to be counseled and mentored. If they refuse to improve their OER/NCOER needs to reflect that. Too often leaders don't want to take the "hard right" and let substandard subordinates like you're describing slide through.
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SSG Genaro Negrete
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It has been my understanding for some time that promotion to CPT was as, not to use the word common, but expected for officers. On the outside, looking in, I don't know the specific time frame needed at the 01, 02 level before being considered for 03. I've not seen any officer NOT make 03 with in their first 4-5 years. I was under the impression that the scrutiny for promotion didn't really begin until you were being looked at for 04.

That being said, what kind of documentation is needed to prevent the promotion to 03? Who is the final approving authority? Is getting passed over once a career killer?

I have seen sub par officers get moved into staff positions. Even top notch officers move. It was my understanding that they needed to fill other positions. Spending time as the BN S4 can give you valuable insight when working as an XO, and vice versa. Understanding all these cogs prepares you to operate the whole machine.

Is there some administrative action, short of kicking the officer out, that can be applied to try to get the soldier to see the severity of their lack of performance? I don't suppose a bar to reenlist applies to officers, but is there an equivalent?
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CPT Assistant Operations Officer (S3)
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Your question is a very good one and possibly many may not answer.

The first question is, is there a paper trail of failures, documentation that shows the failures ?  To promote or not promote you would need to show documentation showing the pattern of good or bad behavior ?

Another question is when LT's have failures or mistakes, was there corrective action or was he/she thrown into the wind ?

A bad NCOER or OER in the hyper competitive arena of the military can hinder or stop the career of a soldier so you may not see a paper trail of mistakes unless it's a major one.

This in essence goes back to the NCO's, Captains, even the LTC to mentor and groom new LT's to be better soldiers. The bad LT's you see now, may be coal meant to be diamonds if developed properly.

Maybe I'm the "always optimist", but unless that LT is completely unresponsive to advise and corrective action, there is always hope for a soldier. This is where you as the SFC is tested.

IMO good platoon sergeants will want the best platoon leaders, but the exceptional SFC will want the challenge of having the "not so good one" because he/she accepts the challenge of grooming a coal into a diamond.

Such a challenge for the SFC also looks better on an NCOER, and as a CPT. I will see it, because you have displayed the ability to mentor, as well as give technical and practical expertise in your chosen field. It also strengthens the Army in general, because LT's who are thrown into the wind and then promoted become very resentful to NCO's who did not advise or help them when they needed it most and that can affect their decision making in the future when they go up in the ranks.
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SSG Anthony Schoepp
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I had a 1LT PL during a training exercise SHOOT his PSG in the upper arm due to improper target identification, lack of attention and failure to listen to the enlisted/NCOs around him...

Not only did after the investigation get 'sealed' did he pick up another infantry platoon, when we returned from deployment he pinned captain. I feel this was a failure on multiple levels and an example of the good ole boy system that can occur in different units.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
CH (CPT) Heather Davis
>1 y
SSG schoepp:

Compared to the 8's when I came in I see a breakdown of mentorship and leadership. I do not like it when the conversation turns into us and them, it does not solve anything. I was an E-5 and I got punched in the face in formation and I still had to listen to my NCO.
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SSG Anthony Schoepp
SSG Anthony Schoepp
>1 y
I apologize if I came across as 'us vs them' being officers against NCOs. The issue that I have is when an orginizational level, usually battalion or higher, tries to protect someone who has done wrong. This could be enlisted, officer or warrant. My issue is that UCMJ and discipline was designed to be uniform across the board but is not, whether by entitlement from grade, rank or position.
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BG Dep. Director, Military Programs
BG (Join to see)
11 y
Remember that you are likely not privy to any punishment that officer is given. Praise publicly and reprimand in private. In this officer's case, his file would have gone before the board based upon his pre-deployment OERs and been promoted on that basis. Very likely he has a General Officer Letter of Reprimand in his file now for that incident and will not be promoted to Major or selected for choice assignments.
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