Posted on Apr 4, 2014

If Officers fail at being a LT, should they be promoted to CPT?

29.3K

I've only seen very few officers being told that they failed at their job, but still see them pin on CPT bars later and be enroute to take a company after C/3. I've seen new NCOs have more authority over people then the officer that was in front of the formation. I know the machine keeps turning no matter what screw, nut, or bolt you put in it, but should we have a way to decomission a young officer quicker to junior enlisted ranks through trends and evaluations rather then continue to give more then half of them more as they go forward?

I've seen these officers get seperated from the force with minimum to pay back to the military, if any at all. I've seen West Point grads told to kick rocks after entering into the ranks, and left with a great education and no fullfilled obligation. What are your thoughts?

Posted in these groups: Officers logo

Posted 12 y ago

Follow this discussion

Responses: 20

CPT (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

SFC Jolly,

The answer is simple. No. Officers who fail at being a LT should not be promoted. I once had a fellow Lieutenant who after 2 years as PL with 3PSGs and 2 COs, was simply untrainable. She couldn't follow simple instructions, wouldn't listen to her PSGs or NCOs, has a list of excuses for every failure, and even had some serious personal relationship issues that interfered with work. My CO did the right thing and would not recommend her for promotion to O-3. The BN CO backed him up and it didn't happen. Later, she got passed over again and she is now out of the Army. We tried everything we could think of to get her proficient at her job, but it simply would not stick. Even the BN CDR and CSM were left scratching their heads. If it needs to happen, it can. You just need to document why.

(10)

Comment

(0)

show previous comments

SGT (Join to see)

11 y

SFC (Join to see), as a Guard NCO, I'm with CPT (Join to see) and MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca, the whole attitude of dumping servicemembers on the guard and reserves because they can't hack it on AD makes no sense, we have the same requirements you do and a whole hell of a lot less time to meet them. It is disrespectful of the fact that Guard and reserve servicemembers make the same sacrifices and risks that AD servicemembers do.

(2)

(0)

SGT (Join to see)

11 y

[Edit] I just realized how old y'all's comments are. Sorry to bring up old crap out of the blue [/Edit]

(1)

(0)

CPT (Join to see)

11 y

Just because it is old doesn't mean that it isn't still relevant SGT (Join to see).

(1)

(0)

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca

11 y

Exactly CPT (Join to see)! SGT (Join to see) The practice is still in play so it is complete relevant. FUMU - Fk up and move up - is alive and well in the military and civilian worlds.

(2)

(0)

COL Vincent Stoneking

Posted 12 y ago

I agree with CPT Johnson and SFC Swartz. Failure should not be rewarded with promotion.

As to the second half - "decommissioning to junior enlisted." No as well. The Officer did not enlist, and has non enlistment agreement. Should they chose to enlist (assuming the Army found them worthy - Doubtful with a shrinking Army and what should be a few bad evals...), that is fine. However "decommissioning" them would put them into a contract they didn't sign, for work that they might well be unsuited for, and guarantee an unhappy barracks lawyer, who has a big chip on their shoulder - Likely to bring down the morale of the unit where they land.

If they were prior enlisted, I believe reversion to their enlisted rank would be a viable option.

(8)

Comment

(0)

BG (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

All officers have an obligation similar to an enlisted contract for their first few year. USMA grad owe 5 yrs., ROTC 4, and poor OCS grads like me only 3. A few officers, like pilots or doctors can owe even more. Bottom line is that they can't leave the Service without paying back Uncle Sam.
Some officers may also be late bloomers and be better senior officers than junior officers. We don't decide if an enlisted man can be a good Sergeant Major after his or her first four years, let's not do that with officers.

(6)

Comment

(0)

LCDR (Join to see)

11 y

Good point General, while I personally have never seen a failing JO “get better” I am sure there are more than a few instances where the command climate was such that a JO would have done better in a more successful command. They normally get at least that one transfer before their time is up and thus the opportunity to flourish under better leadership.

But, at least in the Navy inevitably the rate of promotion to O-3 is 100% and a failing O-2 is just kicked down the road. I have seen in one instance while the Navy was downsizing a completely failing JO was "encouraged" to take IRR, since all of our JOs are USNR until they become permanent grade IRR just means you are off the hook for the rest of your obligation. Now that does not apply to pilots or doctors and you are still subject to call up till the end of that 8th year.

(1)

(0)

BG (Join to see)

11 y

Well, it's a little trickier than that. Your obligation remains and years in the IRR do not count against that obligation. When I deployed my battalion to Iraq in '08, I received 13 IRR Officers/enlisted who had not completed their 8 year obligation. One Major had been out for 17 years! The only way out was to formally resign your commission and some claimed they did, but the paperwork somehow became lost....

(1)

(0)

LTC (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

I think that we all have seen both officers and NCOs that should not be wearing the rank or even be in the uniform. With that being said we have to do our best to train these LTs and try to improve them to the point that they are productive. If they refuse to change or are not the type of officer that should have been accepted absolutely push them out of the military. I know I would not want to have them lead a company and potentially get people killed while deployed because they should have never been promoted. For those thinking well you can put them in staff.....I have been in staff and had to deal with fellow officers who did not measure up to the rank or position and had to cover down on their work or have others in their unit do it in order for the mission to be completed. It is a waste of time, energy, and tax payer money to promote these officers to whatever the next rank is, not just LTs. Just my two cents.

(5)

Comment

(0)

LTC (Join to see)

Posted 11 y ago

We typically learn so much more from our failures. As long as the LT is bringing those lessons to CPT, I am OK with it.

(4)

Comment

(0)

LTC Dr Richard Wasserman

Posted >1 y ago

Depends on the way you define failure. Are they a danger to themselves or others? Are they in the proper position? Should they be in a team situation or work by themselves? Can they perform PT as well as their soldiers? These are just a few of the things that need to be considered.

(3)

Comment

(0)

1SG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Simple answer to original question. NO!

Simple answer to subsequent question. NO.

Don't take a PROBLEM from the officers and make them a problem for the enlisted, reserve etc. If the worst money problem we have in the military is "wasting" money on a few educations that we don't benefit from in terms of leadership, then we are doing pretty good in my opinion.

(3)

Comment

(0)

SFC (Join to see)

12 y

Is this a trick question?

(1)

(0)

SFC William Swartz Jr

Posted 12 y ago

My personal feeling is no, if they are considered a failure as a LT and rated in that manner, there should be no promotion to CPT. Most LTs are PLs, if they are not successful in the managing/leading of a small number of Soldiers with a relatively small amount of vehicles/equipment, why would or should they be placed in charge of a larger number of Soldiers or even more vehicles/equipment? I have seen plenty of less than deserving LTs removed as a tank PL and assigned as the ammo PL, because they couldn't perform the way they should. In my opinion, and I hold the same opinion of NCOs as well, if you perform so poorly or inadequately that you are removed from your MOS/career field, then you need to be shown the door, not "rewarded" for it.

(3)

Comment

(0)

SFC (Join to see)

12 y

I'll agree that 80 percent will do PL time before making CPT, but not all do. You LTs are moving from one PL job to the next, and then moved to staff... I just want to see a trending developing that I would think most believe at a early age that all officers are breed for CMD.

(0)

BG David Fleming III

Posted 11 y ago

Absolutely not! It is incumbent upon Senior officers who supervise substandard junior officers to document their failures through counseling and the OER process. If not, the board has no alternative but to promote them.

(2)

Comment

(0)

CPT (Join to see)

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

Making mistakes are part of a lifelong process of personal and professional development. Is that what we are calling failure? Very few individuals wearing the uniform today were born leaders. The large majority of us were slowly, and often painfully shaped by our NCOs, peers, and superiors into the officers we are today. Actual failure in my book comes from the inability to learn from your mistakes or listen to sound counsel, regardless of the source. The bottom line is that rank should never be a barrier for continued personal and professional development. I'm immediately reminded of one of my favorite quotes by MG MacFarland, Ft. Huachuca CG, that I received during one of his OPD sessions: "...never allow your rank to define who you are as an individual".

(2)

Comment

(0)

If Officers fail at being a LT, should they be promoted to CPT?

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.