Posted on Oct 21, 2015
Is 39 training days good enough for the National Guard and Reserves?
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So the First Army Boss is stating that the Reserves, to include the National Guard, don't have enough time for training. I think the 39 days a years is not horrible. You really can never get enough training but I don't think that took some of our systems into consideration. If you look at a Armored Brigade Combat Team you have a lot of moving parts. Getting your soldiers from various Armories throughout the state and to then to get them to their vehicles so they can do a gunnery is extremely difficult. Gunneries are usually left to do at an Annual Training when you can have more time but then that takes a lot of resources and that is pretty much all that you will do.
Keep in mind that the First Army is viewing as a means to mobilize and deploy reserve forces quicker. They are focusing on their ability to deploy in a short time frame.
What is your experience with this?
Keep in mind that the First Army is viewing as a means to mobilize and deploy reserve forces quicker. They are focusing on their ability to deploy in a short time frame.
What is your experience with this?
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 98
I've been in the ARNG for 10 years, and USAR for 9, plus mobilization (several years under First Army, as a matter of fact). There will never be enough time, regardless of whether you're AC or RC. There's just too many commitments in addition to the training mission. Additional days for those who can manage it along with their civilian careers would be very welcome, in my opinion.
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CPT (Join to see)
True. I can't think of a time when I knew a true soldier say "Hey, we are good here. We clearly trained enough." I just don't think that happens. I would question the use of training management. Some of my drills have been MUTA 5s in the past with a 3 week AT. I think we did a great job with our training. Was it perfect? I don't know but we didn't look around to question anything. We had training to accomplish. I enjoyed it. What really brothers me is when you don't put the time in to train and then question the system I recall right after I got back from OCS I was at my first AT. I was off doing officer stuff at battalion with my CO. I came back to our AA and didn't see anyone. It was a bit before noon so I figured my platoon was off training. Then I went to my platoon's tent and found them racked out. I was pissed to be honest. All I could think was that it is rare to get to go to base and stay in the field with no really messing you. You can train as you wish. I think I put a bit too much faith in the NCOs then. I have learned since then to have a plan in place. But that happens. Will a soldier be completely trained to fight in 39? Not to their potential but that is why we have a time frame to which we prepare for a month or two to deploy and we continue to train even when we are deployed.
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I think it is difficult for any reserve component unit to be fully trained. When I was an active duty Bradley Infantry Company Commander in Germany, it was a full time effort to stay trained and ready. Systems these days are even more complex and I have no idea how a RC unit is able to stay current on just one weekend a month and two weeks of AT. That being said, I think some of this also falls on reserve units for their training management. In my last unit was in the 75th Training Command and thus was not an MTOE unit. We had the responsibility to train Brigade and Battalion staffs. We wasted so much time during our battle assemblies doing mandatory training, ranges, and other non-related to our mission tasks. We checked the block on a lot of stuff but there was only a small core of officers and NCOs that knew their job. Outside of those, most did not even know the steps of MDMP and that was one of our core tasks to train staffs on. We had enough time to get a lot more done but because it could not go on an OER like 100% trained on SHARP or 100% qualified on pistol (our unit did not even have any weapons), we did not stress it.
Another point is the impact that additional training days will have on civilian employers. Most will do their duty and support their part time Soldier. But it can also get to the point where they start to question dedication once the duty goes beyond the one weekend and two weeks. At what point does it become a burden to the employer? This is especially true as they see the President saying that combat operations are over in Iraq and almost over in Afghanistan. I am not sure they will have the same support for RC Soldiers when it comes to deploying for long training missions that are not combat operations. If the RC loses the support of the community and employers, it will be very costly. All too often, active duty Soldiers do not realize the impact of deployments on a part time Soldier because they do not experience that. It is easy for him to say we need more training time but what will the cost be on the Soldier if employment security is gone?
Another point is the impact that additional training days will have on civilian employers. Most will do their duty and support their part time Soldier. But it can also get to the point where they start to question dedication once the duty goes beyond the one weekend and two weeks. At what point does it become a burden to the employer? This is especially true as they see the President saying that combat operations are over in Iraq and almost over in Afghanistan. I am not sure they will have the same support for RC Soldiers when it comes to deploying for long training missions that are not combat operations. If the RC loses the support of the community and employers, it will be very costly. All too often, active duty Soldiers do not realize the impact of deployments on a part time Soldier because they do not experience that. It is easy for him to say we need more training time but what will the cost be on the Soldier if employment security is gone?
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CPT (Join to see)
I am in a Mech unit. I am a PL. It is something very difficult to maintain our proficiency. Some of us don't have much of a chance. I have never done a gunnery and now my PL is just about up. We really lean on our experience guys on the track.
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My son is in the Guard. From what he has to say after a drill weekend. It is not the amount of days that they train, it is the training itself. It is not well thought out or structerd to get the most out of the time they have available to them. To many times they spend all weekend and accomplish nothing. This is a command problem.
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CPT (Join to see)
I agree with you. I think training management should be something that leaders at every level look at. I try to have prep my soldiers to give classes. When ever there is down time they have to teach a class. You have to have several classes on standby for it to work but if we don't try to work this at the lowest level we can then we are also put of the problem.
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SGT Patrick Reno
That's great LT that's the whole point of what you are there for is to train. It seems that a lot of time it is just a weekend of good old boy bullshit sessions. My son go's to train and is disappointed when the weekend ends up being a waste of time.
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Sir, I am currently in the Army Reserve and I feel that while the time we are given to train is both good and bad. For reserve/guard soldiers, it allows them to have a civilian job, attend schooling, as well as keeping them refreshed on their MOS training and other drills they do at BA. However, if a Reserve/guard unit were to be deploy they would need to train for a while before they are fit and ready to be able to be as prepared as an Active unit both physically and mentally as well as ready to perform their MOS in a deployment situation.
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I don't think we train 39 days out of the year on Active Duty, but we do our jobs on a near-daily basis. Many National Guard and Reservists have a civilian equivalent of their Army positions. I'd like to think 39 days is sufficient, but it really depends on the unit's mission and the technical skills required for the personnel in the command.
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MSG (Join to see)
There are those that, unfortunately, do not have a civilian job counterpart to their MOS. Example, I once knew a medic in the Reserves that in the civilian world worked as a TSA. I am Preventive Medicine, so I do health inspections, entomological and environmental surveys in the Army (but I did not need college degrees to qualify) but in the civilian world I do not do this as I do not have the proper college degrees to get the same job.
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Make better use of time at drill. The briefings & annual training requirements should be handled between drills, with credit given for early release on sundays. The tired tradition of standing around waiting to be released does more damage to soldiers motivation and commuting safety than anything else. The time at drill should be laser focused on METL & Be Know Do.
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CPT (Join to see)
Indeed. We make our soldier do their SSD on their time and we don't have an issue with it. Why can't we make a system to do these online like our accident avoidance or cyber awareness.
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39 training days??? There are 48 battle assemblies and 14-29 days of annual training. Not sure where the 39 comes from. Additionally the current number of training days are never enough especially when you have no many enlisted soldiers in low density MOS that do not do their military job in their civilian employment. My background is medical so this is near and dear to me. We NEVER had enough time to train our medics, resp therapists etc during BA or AT because 1SG, Co CMDR always tasked them out to other lest meaningful things. It is bad enough it is catch as catch can during regular training.
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COL Vincent Stoneking
Ma'am,
The 39 comes from the 48 UTAs being executed as 12 2-day MUTA-4 drills and the "standard" of 15 days of AT for the National Guard. (the "standard") for the Army reserve is 14 days of AT. (and 12 for IMAs)
When they talk about "the standard" for AT, it really is just a
budgetary planning factor. 15 * Guard_Population * AVG_Pay = AT budget, very roughly speaking.
I don't think I have every HIT the 39 (or 38) day "standard" in my entire career, even without counting the "for god and country" time.
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/pay/allowances/2015/01/22/2015-pay-book-guard-reserve/21877057/
The 39 comes from the 48 UTAs being executed as 12 2-day MUTA-4 drills and the "standard" of 15 days of AT for the National Guard. (the "standard") for the Army reserve is 14 days of AT. (and 12 for IMAs)
When they talk about "the standard" for AT, it really is just a
budgetary planning factor. 15 * Guard_Population * AVG_Pay = AT budget, very roughly speaking.
I don't think I have every HIT the 39 (or 38) day "standard" in my entire career, even without counting the "for god and country" time.
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/pay/allowances/2015/01/22/2015-pay-book-guard-reserve/21877057/
2015 Pay Book: Guard and Reserve
What's a typical year in the Guard or year in the Reserve worth?
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MSG (Join to see)
Reservist/ national guard in the medical fields just doesn't work. Those with civilian medical experience can afford not to be in the service and often dodge deployments to work in/ run private clinics. Compensating this is near impossible. Truth be told, aside from medics on the front lines, all branches would gain a lot more by contracting medical service.
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I think it would be enough time if there was better training value. My unit recently had us flown out on chinooks only to land as a cluster f@#k, and then proceeded to do basic battle drills that could've been done by team leaders in the woods behind our home station. There's plenty of time but it often goes wasted because many of the young officers and NCOs have never been active or deployed and lack the training themselves. I could go on about the lack of good guard training for days lol
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CPT (Join to see)
Training Management is something that really has to be looked at. I don't think the Full Time Staff have to lay out everything. I would be looking at the PSGs and SLs to have a plan to address this.
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SGT (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) - I agree sir, and those are the individuals I'm speaking about. Many of them just don't take training seriously because they're burned out on trying to get a bunch of college kids motivated
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Depends on the unit as well as what the training is meant to accomplish - what level of readiness is the training goal? For I/C/S, absolutely it is enough, or would be if the admin burden of various 'awareness' classes didn't eat so much training time. Everyone recognizes that there is more training needed to get platoon/company/BCT level readiness. That's why the ARFORGEN cycle was developed and rotational readiness models are still being worked. Even the AC, with all their 200-220 days a year struggle to meet all the standards.
The good news is it appears the new Army leadership may finally put their money where their mouths are and resource Guard and Reserve requirements - more rotations through maneuver training sites. Even given 120 training days at home station, my Ordnance Detachment could not achieve proficiency on BN level tasks. Units need resources and training sites available for the BN to train together.
I remember GEN Casey calling the Guard to task early on in the GWOT response because we had to cross-level and break numerous units to put whole units together and get them out the door. LTG Vaughn's response was spot-on. "The Army got the ARNG it had been willing to pay for." Army plans for round-outs never materialized because they were never resourced. Low density units that were resourced at 60% or less because Army was still focused on the Fulda Gap rather than unconventional warfare were 60% or less ready - as would be expected.
The good news is it appears the new Army leadership may finally put their money where their mouths are and resource Guard and Reserve requirements - more rotations through maneuver training sites. Even given 120 training days at home station, my Ordnance Detachment could not achieve proficiency on BN level tasks. Units need resources and training sites available for the BN to train together.
I remember GEN Casey calling the Guard to task early on in the GWOT response because we had to cross-level and break numerous units to put whole units together and get them out the door. LTG Vaughn's response was spot-on. "The Army got the ARNG it had been willing to pay for." Army plans for round-outs never materialized because they were never resourced. Low density units that were resourced at 60% or less because Army was still focused on the Fulda Gap rather than unconventional warfare were 60% or less ready - as would be expected.
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CPT (Join to see)
That is a good point about the status of the Guard. I recall Rumsfeld getting called out about the size of the Army and how prepared it was. He said something to the effect of that you go to war with the Army you have and not the Army you want.
I do think some units should get more funding and training time. Maneuver units really need this. Or if they are not going to be tapped for anything I would give them a down year were they would save up money for the next years training.
I do think some units should get more funding and training time. Maneuver units really need this. Or if they are not going to be tapped for anything I would give them a down year were they would save up money for the next years training.
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COL Vincent Stoneking
CPT (Join to see) - Yep, while people didn't like it, Rumsfeld hit that one on the nose. You get what you paid for, not what you now think would have been cool.
Now, that perhaps points to systemic problems with prediction (an epic post in its own right) and systemic planning (likewise). But those are separate from the core point.
You get what you pay for.
If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got.
Now, that perhaps points to systemic problems with prediction (an epic post in its own right) and systemic planning (likewise). But those are separate from the core point.
You get what you pay for.
If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got.
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I think there should be a way for Reserve/Guard members to come in on extra weekends, if they choose, to put in more time if they want. If there is already an active component at the base, wouldn't it be feasible to integrate one of these members into some training?
I think many would want to have more training, if it were feasible to attain.
I think many would want to have more training, if it were feasible to attain.
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CPT (Join to see)
I don't think it would be that simple. There is a lot of liability. Even if it is for free if a soldiers gets injured it is going to cost a bit of money.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
CPT (Join to see) - Plus the fact this needs to be planned. Getting RC soldiers into an active unit is tough because there is always the unit cohesion thing. Also finding a unit where the soldiers will get what they need when they need it is also tough. It would be easier to plan a unit size (platoon) involvement with an AD unit. Once a relationship had been set up, over time it might be easier.
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COL Vincent Stoneking
This would have issues, but I could see it working with some sort of hybrid drilling TPU (RC unit) AND DIMA status.
But it would have to be more formalized than "I've got some time next weekend" from the training value, value to AC unit, and coordination standpoint.
But it would have to be more formalized than "I've got some time next weekend" from the training value, value to AC unit, and coordination standpoint.
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