Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
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PltSgt, think about what just happened. Do you think either case is prejudicial to good order and discipline not to mention leadership? The BC was in error for educating the LT in his presence. The LT was wrong for firing a full broadside, and finally the CSM should have realized that he was dealing with a JO and saw it as a teaching moment. I have known of many Captains who have re-educated JOs, but never in front of enlisted. Command Master Chiefs are leaders and educators not asses. This is about working together to get the mission done, not about who the biggest ass is. Rank has its responsibility as well as power, we should all use them wisely.
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This question like so many of these can be misinterpreted in so many different ways. Say you’re at the firing range and you demonstrating and grenades this is a live situation and everybody supposed to be taking it seriously. It is conceivable to me that some one out of the mini thousands of second lieutenants might just be stupid enough to start horsing around with a live grenade in front of all of his troops. The senior master sergeant would be absolutely right to yell at him right then and there to stop the dangerous situation. My point is that even though the general rule is you absolutely do not disrespect a person of a higher rank there must be exceptions to that rule like there are exceptions to our rules.
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A CSM that has his/act together will simply sate "Sir, this talk about this oan the side or simply saying "Sir, my experience with this matter needs private discussion."
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MSG Loren Tomblin
As an addendum I once had a 1LT confront me with "Son, where did you get that CIB? I was a PV2 at the time and was sporting and EIB. I told him Germany and that it was an EIB not a CIB. I was a former SGT. We were discussing it off to the side and I informed him that my advice was to get all the facts before he reacted.
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My thought is that this kind of spat shouldn't be in front of the troops. It should be handled privately behind closed doors and away from troops. It's bad for morale and would be disrespectful and not even professional. There are ways to deal with stuff like that, and that course of action displayed right there was not it.
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I wasn’t going to write anything; but then I thought I should share that , yes Command Sargent Majors do indeed chew out Lt. Col. My Smash saw that our Col. was talking to the battalion with his hands in his pocket and Smash got pist off and told him; well yelled at him that he would not address his battalion with his hands in his pockets. And the Lt. Col immediately took his hands outta his pockets. Smash was not going to tolerate that. Thank you for letting me share.
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Not big on publicly "chewing out" anyone, be they a private or an officer. Discreet refresher courses will always get better results. I once could hear, but not actually see, General Westmorland "chewing out" a second Lt. It seems the butter bar was unable to read a map in the field. Anyway, Westmorland was somewhat angry and loud, even though the "chewing out" was not in front of the troops. He was yelling about why the Lt. was a second lieutenant, it was because the Army did not have third lieutenants. This was at the end of an Army training test at Ft. Campbell back in 1962.
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SFC Severino Mendez
Ok, one more story. Our Dining Facility Officer was a butter bar. He yelled at one of my E-5s and thought he could get away with it. He made fun of this E-5 in front of everyone in the dining room. This was a Special Forces Mess. I was the SFC of the Dining Facility. I am not bragging but when I came to back and my cooks told me about the incident I asked the Lt to come into the storeroom and I put him at parade rest and chewed his ass out. He then had to leave the unit afterwards. I wasn’t allowed to talk to my cook for six months. I was not allowed to be seen near my cooks as well. Special Forces CSM was highly pist and he got my ass. I still regret to this day. But Lt had it coming to him. Like I said I’m not proud of what I did. But you don’t make fun of an NCO either. Thank you.
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SFC Casey O'Mally As having spent 16-years of my career as either a CSM or a SGM, I can honestly say I never once saw a CSM or even an SGM light up a junior officer in front of soldiers. But during my time as a young enlisted soldier (back in the early and mid-70s), I can only recall on a couple occasions when something remotely like that happening, but it was with a grisly old WWII type 1SG and a very young 2LT. And when it happen, it was generally because of a safety reason or because of a sense of urgency to accomplish a critical mission.
With that all said, I have had a couple run-ins with junior officers and have casually discussed the topic with them after the event to "enlighten" them on the finer ways of leadership. Plus a follow-up discussion with the commander (usually at the battalion or brigade level, but never with a division commander) usually helps ensure that the mis-guided officer strays too far off-track.
In my opinion, I believe most SGMs and CSMs are skilled enough these days to know that part of their job as a Senior Leader is to mentor Junior Officers. Opportunities like that come along occasionally and most junior officers generally know that the senior level NCO (SFC, MSG, 1SG and SGM/CSMs) are there to help them learn their skill sets that most mid- and senior grade officers will attempt to teach them as well.
Good question.
With that all said, I have had a couple run-ins with junior officers and have casually discussed the topic with them after the event to "enlighten" them on the finer ways of leadership. Plus a follow-up discussion with the commander (usually at the battalion or brigade level, but never with a division commander) usually helps ensure that the mis-guided officer strays too far off-track.
In my opinion, I believe most SGMs and CSMs are skilled enough these days to know that part of their job as a Senior Leader is to mentor Junior Officers. Opportunities like that come along occasionally and most junior officers generally know that the senior level NCO (SFC, MSG, 1SG and SGM/CSMs) are there to help them learn their skill sets that most mid- and senior grade officers will attempt to teach them as well.
Good question.
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