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We previously suggested that certain schools should be offered earlier than the current system--long before promotion to the next higher rank.
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2014/11/11/new-master-sergeant-course/18813527/
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2014/11/11/new-master-sergeant-course/18813527/
Education
Advancement
Training
NCOES
Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
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SGM (Join to see) , I thought that the SGMs Academy WAS the school for a MSGs next step up? I do not see any need for another school because if a SM was knowledgeable enough to make MSG then they should not have to go to another school just for their rank.
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SGM (Join to see)
Just like they did for Sgts Major Academy, get it going, put in training funds, then complain about TRICARE and retired pay that come out of DOD budget
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MSG (Join to see)
My question is will this be an Academy like the SMA academy, where the school is only held at one base; or will it be branch specific? Also, where will the instructors come from?
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SGM (Join to see)
Long ago, in an Army far, far away, unit training was unit based. Common core training was also unit based. Only the most specialized skills had a school, and that school was much like today, at the proponency. NCO leadership training was also conducted locally, by local NCOs from the Special Leadership Preparation Program designed to select trainees in Basic Training, to NCO Leader Courses for SSgt and below. Then came the advent of the NCOES programs, with new courses added for each MOS--well, almost each (low density skills usually fell through the cracks and had to attend the next best thing). Eventually, many new courses were considered common core--based on the officer model of "bachelor-master-doctor" training = basic/advanced-C&GS-War College. As in the Sgt Maj Academy = "doctor"; many would debate that. If NCOs are the backbone of the Army then the Sgt Maj Academy is the school for Chiropractors (see related Q)....now with CSM charm school, Battle Staff, 1SG, etc.
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SFC Boots Attaway
I remember the SQT, local PNCOC and BNCOC. Now that was training and testing of knowledge.
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NO! They've already dismissed the 1sgs course. At that, they dumbed it down so bad that it wasn't challenging. 1sg course is a good course to have. Just need to modify it. Battle staff and support operations phase 2 prepare seasoned seniors for the staff positions.
Problem is the seniors selected. Most don't want to play. So junior guys get those slots. I went to battle staff with more SSG than msg. More lt than Cpt. They were hungry for the ASI. The msg weren't hungry at all. Some felt that they got theirs so what's the bother. Another ncoes school with the current curriculum would be horrid. Hard enough to sit still diring BNCOC ancoc. Learned to buff floors again. But not much else. And that was years ago.
Before I vote a yes, I would like to see what exactly they are planning to teach me. Until then, answer is a solid no!
Problem is the seniors selected. Most don't want to play. So junior guys get those slots. I went to battle staff with more SSG than msg. More lt than Cpt. They were hungry for the ASI. The msg weren't hungry at all. Some felt that they got theirs so what's the bother. Another ncoes school with the current curriculum would be horrid. Hard enough to sit still diring BNCOC ancoc. Learned to buff floors again. But not much else. And that was years ago.
Before I vote a yes, I would like to see what exactly they are planning to teach me. Until then, answer is a solid no!
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CPT Robert Skinner
NO, no matter what! How about making MSG being challenged! Not a percentage but a pass of fail criteria?
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CPT Robert Skinner
The reason why I say that is because I had to relieve my 1SG Sergeant. It was crazy, because she was a good leader in garrison, but in deployment, she was a complete failure. I didn't complete my deployment. However, I've met many of my senior sergeant that should have been more prepared.
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MSG (Join to see)
hard to prep someone for a deployment, sir. the only way to truly know how one responds in combat is to be in combat. by then, its just too late. i too have met many officers and NCOs that weren't ready for the rigors of war. the only thing we could do is try to work with them. many leaders are great in garrison and you would hope that would transfer to the battlefield. but war is an ugly monster and it brings a new set of challenges. i didnt focus on simple things during my deployment. i focused on the mission. uniform violations, relaxed grooming standards, hands in the pocket, dirty head gear, etc. that was just a way of life in the sand box. and though i could understand the CSM position stating that standards still need to be met from a discipline stand point, i gave a little "leeway" but explained to the Soldiers that little things amount to bigger problems in the end.
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I think we should stop promoting people who don't have the skills and knowledge necessary to take the next step. Most of the leadership problems I see stem from accelerated promotions without experience. Standards and discipline have taken a huge hit because it's hard to instill discipline if you have none, and you can't enforce standards if you don't know them.
"Early findings show many leaders agree the course should include training in areas such as writing, briefing senior leaders, operations management, training management, mission command, doctrine, critical thinking, operating in a joint environment, problem solving and staff integration, Defreese said." -
Seriously? By the time you are an E8 you should know army writing, since we have to do it in WLC/ALC/SLC.
Anyone who is an NCO should be able to give a damn briefing or be fired.
Operations management? what do they mean by this? maintaining operational awareness and management of personnel? another key NCO task that should be known by this point. If they mean it from a staff point of view, there are staff courses for that already.
Training management... I don't even want to get into this. If you can't manage training by E8, you have failed as a Soldier and the Army has failed as an institution.
Mission Command/doctrine/joint ops/staff integration - staff course, 1sg course
Critical thinking and problem solving? surely by E8 you should have some thinking and problem solving skills... WLC/ALC/SLC not enough? or do E8's have grade specific problems that no one could possibly come up with a solution to except by going through this school they are proposing?
The entire subject is just some BS that a good idea fairy though up to get a medal or a bullet on their evaluation, or to create new jobs for their friends.
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/warrior-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/advanced-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/senior-leader-course.html
https://usasma.bliss.army.mil/page.asp?id=3
Forgive my brash response to this, but we should fix the Army structure as it is, before adding new crap to it.
It's like shining up the tires on your car, which are flat, and the engine knocks, and the windshield is cracked, and the battery is dead. Why?
SGM (Join to see) , I agree with the suggestion of offering schools sooner. We shouldn't teach you how to do your job once you get there, we should teach you before you get there.
"Early findings show many leaders agree the course should include training in areas such as writing, briefing senior leaders, operations management, training management, mission command, doctrine, critical thinking, operating in a joint environment, problem solving and staff integration, Defreese said." -
Seriously? By the time you are an E8 you should know army writing, since we have to do it in WLC/ALC/SLC.
Anyone who is an NCO should be able to give a damn briefing or be fired.
Operations management? what do they mean by this? maintaining operational awareness and management of personnel? another key NCO task that should be known by this point. If they mean it from a staff point of view, there are staff courses for that already.
Training management... I don't even want to get into this. If you can't manage training by E8, you have failed as a Soldier and the Army has failed as an institution.
Mission Command/doctrine/joint ops/staff integration - staff course, 1sg course
Critical thinking and problem solving? surely by E8 you should have some thinking and problem solving skills... WLC/ALC/SLC not enough? or do E8's have grade specific problems that no one could possibly come up with a solution to except by going through this school they are proposing?
The entire subject is just some BS that a good idea fairy though up to get a medal or a bullet on their evaluation, or to create new jobs for their friends.
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/warrior-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/advanced-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/senior-leader-course.html
https://usasma.bliss.army.mil/page.asp?id=3
Forgive my brash response to this, but we should fix the Army structure as it is, before adding new crap to it.
It's like shining up the tires on your car, which are flat, and the engine knocks, and the windshield is cracked, and the battery is dead. Why?
SGM (Join to see) , I agree with the suggestion of offering schools sooner. We shouldn't teach you how to do your job once you get there, we should teach you before you get there.
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SGM (Join to see)
Some of my points exactly....just as we train to fight the last war, we school to train the last promotion.
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I think before this happens, we should go back and look at why the Army got rid of it in the first place. What will they teach in this course that you won't get from SLC and a local 1SG/CDR course?
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MSG (Join to see)
If the course is anything like SLC, it will largely be a waste of time. TRADOC seems to have drunk the pedagogical Kool Aid as of late.
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In my personal opinion I would say yes simply because every NCOES school I have been in I enjoyed it very much although the courseware was not up to what people expected. I have learned so much from my battles and their experiences and of course got a chance to network.
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I initially thought NO, and then I started thinking about what is currently happening in my unit and units across the Army. We have a big population of SFCs serving in 1SG positions and I am sorry but the merger between the old FSC and now SLC just does not prepare anyone to assume the awesome responsibility of any Company, Battery, Troop or Detachment! Here lies the real problem, what do 1SGs really need to help them be successful in performing and understanding their duties but more importantly supporting their commanders with solid answers and experience? I read a few posts already and have to agree that as a senior NCO or 1SG you should know how to conduct briefings, write and provide critical feedback on awards, evaluations and other personnel actions but in truth you don’t really gain that experience at the platoon sergeant or squad leader level. Think about it, as a SFC you might write or review 12-15 NCOERs in a year unless a (42A). As a 1SG I processed well over 163 evaluations last year alone to include multiple relief for causes for misconduct. I didn’t have, nor learn those experiences in any school or prior to any assignment before I became a 1SG. I am not saying the Army doesn’t need it but instead clearly to do newly selected MSGs any justice the curriculum needs to have a solid direction that applies to what a 1SG is doing in today’s Army. In my respectful opinion, some of the topics for this new MLC are just not what a 1SG clearly needs to be set up for success.
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SGM (Join to see)
MSG Rink--that's the entire point...we do not prepare NCOs for higher levels of responsibility in ways that are particularly relevant years ahead. If we did, we could also spot talent earlier. In fact, we rarely even ask 1SGs from every MOS about their particular critical experiences--for like all things in soldiering, we have common tasks and specialized tasks. In my view, any SFC worth shoe polish should be able to at least initially fill in for a 1SG. And in my company, they'd get the chance to do so, just as every Platoon Officer should walk in the moccasins of a Commander not only to get a taste of command, but the all important perspective. That builds understanding, empathy, support. And sometimes very good ideas.
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I'd say that they need to fix the Basic Leaders Course first before they worry about the MSG's. From what I've seen and heard its a joke. Modern NCO's need to know more about how to deal with soldiers and tactical shit and far less about Dog and Pony bullshit.
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Absolutely YES! As new Master Sergeants, many, if not most will be assuming positions on Battalion/Bde/or higher Command Staff positions, having new responsibilities that they most likely have not experienced. They will be writing operation orders, frag orders, training plans; dealing with senior officers; responsible for managing organizational training (no longer Platoon or individual unit training); they will given tasks to solve (what is the best way to implement this thru out the Bn/Bde); They will be requried to know more than their MOS and have to understand the complexities of organizational issues above company/unit and consider effects and impacts on all MOSs in that organization. Tactically speaking, they learned tactics at unit level, however at Bn/Bde/higher they must learn tactics above that level, which means learning the way of the present and the future and that brings them to doctrine and even joint operations. Newly promoted Master Sergeants are not prepared for this. It's not their fault, and I believe its time the Army makes it happen.
Also, First Sergeants will not alway be First Sergeants for the most part. E8s can go from MSG to 1SG and back again. The Course should be for both 1SG/MSGs.
Also, First Sergeants will not alway be First Sergeants for the most part. E8s can go from MSG to 1SG and back again. The Course should be for both 1SG/MSGs.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
I have to admit Bn/Bde Ops is a whole different ball of wax. In those respects so many more things could be covered. I was thrust from a line unit in to a G3 staff position - man was I lost. I was a SFC and had some good guidance but I know many will not have that. If they got a good course and do it correctly then it will help. Do you remember when the old SNOC was around? From what I heard, many things it covered were left out when it was abandon before.
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SFC (Join to see)
Baptism by fire, an old CSM told me that was how he figured out who could hack and thrive under pressure.
Looking at the NCOES system I think we are improving. The problem was that each course was teaching skills that most students already knew or trained them for positions they were or had worked in.
Looking at the NCOES system I think we are improving. The problem was that each course was teaching skills that most students already knew or trained them for positions they were or had worked in.
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1SG (Join to see)
Totally understand your thoughts and I can't argue about the S3 being a dumping groud for fired NCOs. I spent 4 yrs as a HQs Co. and seen a lot of it and raising hell about it, did not stop it from continuing.You comment works well for you, but then each company has 4-6 other PSGs that have no staff experience at all. If you are ever unfortunate to have to work on a Bde Staff, you will find it much different from a Bn Staff. Most PSGs and NCOs at the unit level do not have the experience that you have. How does the Army prepare them to move on. Learning under fire does work, but its not necessarily the best way to learn. Too many mistakes made along the way.
Back to the course for E8-Master Sergeants; They do not primarily write OPORDs, FRAGOs, etc, they are managers of all the different actions and functions required of a HQs staff, what ever the level; There is much more to it than you've mentioned.
In your case, with your time and experience in an S3, I see where this would give a step up compared with many of the others who would be attending such as course. Your case puts you in the minority when compared with others across the Army. I know 1SGs who have never been on a Bn/Bde Staff and do not look forward to making the transition. Learning a lot of those skills would better prepare them for for promotion to SGM/CSM.
Back to the course for E8-Master Sergeants; They do not primarily write OPORDs, FRAGOs, etc, they are managers of all the different actions and functions required of a HQs staff, what ever the level; There is much more to it than you've mentioned.
In your case, with your time and experience in an S3, I see where this would give a step up compared with many of the others who would be attending such as course. Your case puts you in the minority when compared with others across the Army. I know 1SGs who have never been on a Bn/Bde Staff and do not look forward to making the transition. Learning a lot of those skills would better prepare them for for promotion to SGM/CSM.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
I got dumped into a Corps staff. Holy Cow what an eye opener. I was completely lost for some time. I was lucky to have some good help along the way. I think it would do all leadership positions good to spend some time in Staff positions. Maybe that should be considered a movement step in promotions?
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