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Soldiers just completed a 32-hour mission on the road. They get to a tiny FOB in Iraq and have 12 minutes left to grab food before the chow hall closes. The Soldiers are not freshly shaved and cannot easily access their personal hygiene items therefore technically out of regulation. Would you enforce the standard and make the Soldiers immediately go shave or would you not enforce the standard and let the Soldiers go eat?
With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?
With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?
Standards
Common sense
Army Regulations
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 116
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Someone please show me the regulation that says soldiers can't eat chow unless they do certain things (ie. shave, have a clean uniform, etc.). Second, I would ask a question. Is the chow hall and the Soldiers that man it there to serve themselves or to serve the Soldiers who are fighting? Bottom line- those Soldiers will eat. I actually ran into this several times when I was a BN XO in Iraq. The Mess SGT was destroyed on more than one occasion for this petty BS. It isn't the Soldiers fault their mission, the units mission, doesn't conform to the DFAC hours. And, BTW, an MRE or anything other than regular chow is a weak answer.
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SGT Jonathan Williams
I'm not advocating that Soldiers get turned away. I only want to show you the regulation they are using. Commander's derive the authority to command from AR 600-20. That command authority is delegated to NCOs via that same regulation, a couple of FMs, UCMJ, and tradition. That DFAC NCO may be ordered to have the standard, and has to enforce it. Or that DFAC NCO wrote the SOP and it was signed. Whatever the reason the DFAC NCO is enforcing that standard, the foundation was in the regulation. Taking care of Soldiers is also a standard. Sometimes as leaders have to see that yes... there is a regulation and a standard... but it does not fit here. So leaders do have some flexibility. What is more important, what is the priority or work? The feeding of Soldiers is of more priority versus the shaving of Soldiers.
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SGT Jonathan Williams
And I agree, MREs and TOGO plates is a shortcut. There is something to be said of the ability to sit down and eat. Moral does affect the mission.
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LTC (Join to see)
I'm familiar with Army Command Policy. My point was to show there isn't a regulation that says you must do those things to go into a dfac. This is an example of someone bringing the wrong mindset to a deployment.
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SGT Jonathan Williams
Sir,
I do agree. There were a good many policies that made no sense to me. The deployment in some ways was inhibited by red tape and standards that ended up making no operational sense to me. I'm a thinking man and some things did not make sense.
I do agree. There were a good many policies that made no sense to me. The deployment in some ways was inhibited by red tape and standards that ended up making no operational sense to me. I'm a thinking man and some things did not make sense.
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Being that I've been in that position many times, I'd let them in to eat. I've been told many times that I'm not allowed in a chow hall after going days of MREs and pounding the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a matter of taking care of Soldiers. Bottom line is making sure they get a hot meal means that it changes their mood and Outlook even if for just an hour or so. Plus in that situation they are probably trying to eat, take care of their gear then sleep not really paying attention to the next chow time because that long on mission whips you out. The Army needs to go back to taking care of Soldiers.
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Feed them!!! Sweet Jesus there is a big difference between troops who have been busting there ass in an operational area and some slug.
Clear your weapon, wash your hands, eat your chow.
I am a Corpsman, I am well aware of the need for hygiene, but hell!!
Clear your weapon, wash your hands, eat your chow.
I am a Corpsman, I am well aware of the need for hygiene, but hell!!
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
Jesus is pretty sweet :)
I agree SCPO, use that beautiful common sense and let them eat!
I agree SCPO, use that beautiful common sense and let them eat!
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Everyone should have a personal hygiene kit with them as part of their 72 hr bag. How hard is it to shave? Leaders lead and enforce the standards, not try to find a way around them or make an excuse. After 5 deployments I've come to see that after every one the standard of living for the most part is better each year. Yes, there are exceptions to that. They are in a combat zone, on a deployment, if getting to the chow hall is the biggest issue then priorities need to get adjusted. MREs suck but they are available. Shave your face, fix your uniform and suck it up. It can always be worse.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
It's harsh but I suppose there's no getting around the fact that you're right SFC.
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SFC (Join to see)
In reality my rank has nothing to do with it. If your 1SG is worth anything this would not be an issue. If like what many have commented on, you plan it out this shouldnt be an issue. yes of course sometimes you cant make it all work and the chow hall isnt in the cards. I think that the biggest issue with this discussion post is that lower enlisted can also read this post and the responses. So what ive mostly seen is leaders saying to bend the rules and to disobey orders. Because that is what it is. AR 670-1 and others are all signed by someone who out ranks us all. That makes it an order. Not a suggestion and not a maybe. It all comes down to this: you joined to conform to the Army not the Army to you. And in a time of war. This type of argument makes the rounds frequently by Soldiers who for the most part are just complaining. Leaders should not be entertaining this line of thought. Enforce the standards, plan, and stay in long enough to effect change for the beterment of the unit and Army.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
I see the bigger picture you're referring to SFC (Join to see) and I think it's brilliant. You present an unpopular side to this discussion however I would challenge anyone to rebuttal your words. I appreciate your feedback and I know I have personally let your words sink in.
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Yes I would enforce the standard, BUT enforcing the standard doesn't mean not letting them eat. You can make an on the spot correction and let the soldier know that if it happens again then you will make him leave the DFAC or make him get a to go plate and leave.
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SGT Jonathan Williams
I don't think I would make the correction. There have been a small handful of times I intend to make a correction, but before issuing the correction I got background on the situation and decided that the correction was not appropriate given the context. Given the test situation in the OPs question, I would have found out about the 30+ hour mission and I would have nodded and walked away. An entire unshaven platoon. They know better, I know they know better. They can eat. I'm sure short of the extenuating circumstances, they would have been shaven. There are normally more than four or five NCOs in a maneuver platoon.
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SSG (Join to see)
in the old days I would understand back in WW11but to day soldiers drive around in RV's with lots of water. shave and clean yourself up, its for health reasons not regulation
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Let them eat!!! I know what it's like to come off mission starving and not have time to clean up. Those who dictate rules and regs to the rest while sitting on their fat asses inside the wire ought to take a good hard look at these Warriors!
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personally as a 13b we've faced situations where we couldn't leave the gunline and only had a few minutes to grab chow....it seems to me that most standards become slacked when in a combat environment which is not a bad thing in most cases
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Let the soldiers eat! If we force them to adhere to standards at the expense of their sustenance, it will have a much more severe impact on their ability to operate in the field resulting in the much higher chance that someone is going to be seriously injured or probably even killed because of it.
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I have learned that there is an "Exception to Policy" for anything. You just have to explain the situation to the DFAC manager. If he doesn't agree with you, then do like MSG Brad Sand said and eat anyways. I promise no one of authority would be willing to disagree with the decision to feed the Soldiers.
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MSG Brad Sand
1SG (Join to see) ,
Thank you for the tag and anyone of authority who does not agree should not be in authority.
Thank you for the tag and anyone of authority who does not agree should not be in authority.
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We are speaking as if feeding soldiers is not the regulation. I am pretty sure if the soldiers would have staved, someone would end up homeless. Taking care of soldiers is at the heart of every regulation.
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