Posted on Dec 23, 2018
Is it normal to get a negative counseling when you attend a voluntary training?
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Some of the NCO leadership hold what the consider informal voluntary trainings that help with professional development of junior enlisted. Things range from mock boards, to military knowledge study sessions, to Rick marches. I’ve noticed that my NCOIC has a tendency to give soldiers that don’t perform well at these trainings negative counseling statements. An example of this would be a solider was counseled for disrespecting a NCO. The soldier wasn’t blatantly disrespectful or acting up. His infraction was that during his mock board he was nervous and started fidgeting and kept breaking eye contact when speaking to the board members. His counseling stated that behavior like that will not be tolerated and that if it persists UCMJ action could be taken against the soldier. Another example would be we were holding a ruck and I informed my first line that I wouldn’t be at the ruck as it was pouring rain and I was still getting over a bad case of step. My NCOIC said he wants to counsel me for failing to show up when we were told it is a voluntary training.
Is it normal for NCOs to use circumstances like that to counseling soldiers for violating punitive articles in an environment that was explicitly presented as training, voluntary, and to help with professional development.
Is it normal for NCOs to use circumstances like that to counseling soldiers for violating punitive articles in an environment that was explicitly presented as training, voluntary, and to help with professional development.
Counseling
Training
Professional Development
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 12
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Counseling is a tool to help soldiers develop and to document various events, this can range from event oriented to monthly counseling. Receiving a counseling is not terrible in nature however, I have not heard of "voluntary professional development." Doing extra curricular activities is encouraged specially if a soldier needs extra support in certain areas. By all means, you are not required to attend voluntary activities, but it is always a good idea to ensure it is not your place of duty. If the NCO wants to counsel you, well that is his business. In that counseling you should be able to express your concerns and in the future, ensure you clarify what is expected from you and the "voluntary" activities.
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MSG Danny Mathers
I concur with your opinion. I had never heard of voluntary professional development either. I did help or mentor my good Soldiers to compete for deserving promotions. I also, made recommendations when asked for an opinion. During mandotory SQT preparation, I taught directly from the manuals and did not focus on hands on things which were easy to learn. The meat of the test were written questions. My men always passed with excellent scores.
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Counseling is just a written discussion. No one is going to send you to UCMJ for not being at voluntary training. Some NCOs were raised that everything goes on paper. That misses the purpose of counseling and its completely useless for punitive action. Just giving someone a negative counseling doesn't mean they've actually violated anything. The people who write these are not lawyers, so they put these statements at the bottom just in case it could, one day, maybe, possibly, be useful.
Since it's just a discussion, you have your chance to write your response. If the training was voluntary, write that in there. If it was a mock board, put that in there. This is where you get to tell you story and if there is ever an issue, the commander can see the whole picture and use their common sense to make a decision.
So, your NCO can counsel you all he wants. Counseling statements don't equal UCMJ. It's just a piece of paper that goes into a folder.
Since it's just a discussion, you have your chance to write your response. If the training was voluntary, write that in there. If it was a mock board, put that in there. This is where you get to tell you story and if there is ever an issue, the commander can see the whole picture and use their common sense to make a decision.
So, your NCO can counsel you all he wants. Counseling statements don't equal UCMJ. It's just a piece of paper that goes into a folder.
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SGT (Join to see)
Let me emphasize something in this statement. ALWAYS write a reponse before signing a DA form 4856. It's a habit that can help the form speak on your behalf when you're not present or the CoC doesn't want to discuss a situation with you.
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MSG Danny Mathers
You are wrong about counseling. Counseling can lead to UCMJ. Verbal counseling is a simple on the spot correction up to a personal ass chewing in a private environment. Formal counseling is a written statement for bad behavor, miscondut, safety violations and other things that affect a unit's mission. Formal counseling statement if more than one for a serious matter can lead up to an ART15 based on the commander's decision. Counseling statements supporting an ART15 can lead to a Chapter. I know this for a fact because in my day, I recommended 16 soldiers in Germany for early discharges. That may not be true today in the new happy, progressive, political correct army of social experimentations. I do agree that a written counseling statement is not the right thing to do for voluntary training unless there was misconduct involved. A piece of paper in a folder can support a UCMJ action. Anything on file either electronoic or paper can be used against you. Look how social media has hurt many a person. Opinions vary.....
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SFC (Join to see)
MSG Danny Mathers counseling CAN lead to UCMJ and is often required. But counseling, in itself, doesn't lead to UCMJ. Just writing a negative counseling, or even 5 doesn't lead to UCMJ. The counseling has to be valid and pass the common sense test. No commander would follow through with a UCMJ for missing voluntary training or disrespect to an NCO for breaking eye contact in a mock board.
The point I am trying to make to the young Soldier is that there is this belief in the junior tanks that 3 negative counseling statements for any reason will lead to an Article 15. They believe it holds some power it doesn't. It's just a paper version of an event. If the event doesn't warrant UCMJ then the counseling doesn't bear any weight.
The point I am trying to make to the young Soldier is that there is this belief in the junior tanks that 3 negative counseling statements for any reason will lead to an Article 15. They believe it holds some power it doesn't. It's just a paper version of an event. If the event doesn't warrant UCMJ then the counseling doesn't bear any weight.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) Counseling statements are regularly used to make determinations for UCMJ, promotions, awards, schools, and separations from service.
The counseling statements for the situations described are not only unwarranted, they have the potential to be used for unwarranted negative personnel decisions and action without the benefit of explanation. Sure, the Soldier can write a comment on the counseling statement, and I always did and encouraged others to do the same. However, these counseling statements, as described, are not developmental, and demonstrate a critical deficiency in that NCOs training and understanding of developmental counseling, leadership, and a host of other shortcomings, regardless of any good intentions.
In the situations described, they demonstrate more negative about the NCO then the Soldier being counseled, and are likely to have a negative impact on the section and unit.
The counseling statements for the situations described are not only unwarranted, they have the potential to be used for unwarranted negative personnel decisions and action without the benefit of explanation. Sure, the Soldier can write a comment on the counseling statement, and I always did and encouraged others to do the same. However, these counseling statements, as described, are not developmental, and demonstrate a critical deficiency in that NCOs training and understanding of developmental counseling, leadership, and a host of other shortcomings, regardless of any good intentions.
In the situations described, they demonstrate more negative about the NCO then the Soldier being counseled, and are likely to have a negative impact on the section and unit.
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More to the story or not, anyone who's been in awhile will occasionally see a lower level "leader" of marginal to poor skill do whatever to restrict juniors obtaining legitimate knowledge that furthers their growth. In the leadership arena, it's learning good things that you then see the NCO not do, have no clue of, etc. Their defensive mechanism is to shield people from learning that. Good SELs see that pretty quick and will take care of it lest it percolates up my way. I've had more than one occasion where a NCO was reassigned to restrict the blast perimeter with subsequent NCOER in the bottom third. In the grand scheme, you need a bottom third to push the upper third through when progression bottlenecks. At that point, other employment looms.
Re: backing away from something that NCO sets up as voluntary, get paper. If Medical covers you, fine. If medical doesn't, then you're on your own. Also, many times a poor leader can't connect the dots differentiating constructive and encouraging informal counseling and formal improper by the book action. That's one of the symptoms of what I identified above.
Re: backing away from something that NCO sets up as voluntary, get paper. If Medical covers you, fine. If medical doesn't, then you're on your own. Also, many times a poor leader can't connect the dots differentiating constructive and encouraging informal counseling and formal improper by the book action. That's one of the symptoms of what I identified above.
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MSG Danny Mathers
Sir, it is good to get a commander's perspective on counseling. Back in the 70's it was required for NCO to give counseling statemenmts to Soldiers for misconduct after a couple of what was termed informal counseling which was written as a note and did not require a formal setting. The norm was that soldiers that received more than a couple of former coiunseling statements would end up doing something which an ART15 initiated. These were bad times in the army especially in Germany. I do not need to go into the many problems both socially and procedural which the system was in favor of ridding the army of misfits. I had a fortunate situation which every commander I served under was outstanding. The same counld not be said of the enlisted all ranks. I left the regular army for SOF so that I would not have to return for another tour of two or three in USAEUR.
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Suspended Profile
There’s got to be more to the story I’m guessing?
SPC (Join to see)
Not really he counsels soldiers that don’t perform well and voluntary professional development training. The only other thing I can say is he can be over the top but the argument that my me saying that is a matter of opinion.
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When threatened with inane administrative or punitive action, my normal course of action was to ask the person to put it in writing and put it in my Officer's record book. It had an automatic review by the next higher officer in the chain of command.
My wife once told the XO's wife that I didn't want to go to a unit wide officers' call. Next day I was called into the XO's office and dressed down like the recruit who won't get off the bus at the recruit depot. Among the things I was told, he ordered me not to discuss the dressing down with my wife, or to tell her to be circumspect with what she tells the XO's wife.
I listened then said.
"1) I recognize that attendance is mandatory. I told my wife I wasn't looking forward to the officer's call. I did not say I was not going.
2) You can order me to like something all you want, it is not going to make me like it.. I don't like asparagus and you can order me to like it until you are blue in the face, that doesn't change the fact that I don't like asparagus. I will attend in the spirit intended and have no intention of acting like a petulant child. I've never wanted to go to an officer's call.
3) I am not a staff officer, I am a unit commander, and unless this was coming from the CO, it was nothing more than unasked for advice.
4) No matter what, your authority does not extend into my marriage. So stay in your lane."
He threatened to charge me. I said wait here... I'll go get the charge sheet. I gave him the charge sheet then stepped in to discuss the conversation with the CO; who it turns out didn't want to go to the Officer's call either.
If you are going to buck authority... be DAMNED sure you are right, strong enough to take it, and don't back down until the orders you are given are legal and within the scope of the person giving them.
My wife once told the XO's wife that I didn't want to go to a unit wide officers' call. Next day I was called into the XO's office and dressed down like the recruit who won't get off the bus at the recruit depot. Among the things I was told, he ordered me not to discuss the dressing down with my wife, or to tell her to be circumspect with what she tells the XO's wife.
I listened then said.
"1) I recognize that attendance is mandatory. I told my wife I wasn't looking forward to the officer's call. I did not say I was not going.
2) You can order me to like something all you want, it is not going to make me like it.. I don't like asparagus and you can order me to like it until you are blue in the face, that doesn't change the fact that I don't like asparagus. I will attend in the spirit intended and have no intention of acting like a petulant child. I've never wanted to go to an officer's call.
3) I am not a staff officer, I am a unit commander, and unless this was coming from the CO, it was nothing more than unasked for advice.
4) No matter what, your authority does not extend into my marriage. So stay in your lane."
He threatened to charge me. I said wait here... I'll go get the charge sheet. I gave him the charge sheet then stepped in to discuss the conversation with the CO; who it turns out didn't want to go to the Officer's call either.
If you are going to buck authority... be DAMNED sure you are right, strong enough to take it, and don't back down until the orders you are given are legal and within the scope of the person giving them.
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My question is when did soldiers start informing NCO'S on what they were or were not going to be doing?? If you were sick then go on sick call. But sounds like that wasn't the case.
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SPC (Join to see)
Thank you for sharing your concern about the current state of Junior Enlisted, NCO relations. It is still required that orders from those that in senior grade or position of authority are to be followed.
Seeing as there was no order mandating that I attend, I took appropriate action in the absence of orders and expressed to the proper person that it would be best from a health stand point that not to attend the training event. They agreed and told me not to come. I would never try to tell an NCO what I will or will not do.
Seeing as there was no order mandating that I attend, I took appropriate action in the absence of orders and expressed to the proper person that it would be best from a health stand point that not to attend the training event. They agreed and told me not to come. I would never try to tell an NCO what I will or will not do.
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CPL Sarah Verity
SPC (Join to see) best I can say then is try to push for becoming an NCO (CPL) like I did. They don't typically mess with a fellow NCO. But using rank as a weapon and saying "we're trying to make leaders out of you" is wrong. They're bad leaders just making more bad leaders. When you ride above the bullshit you'll be a good leader by learning what not to do. Learning about where a soldier wants to go is 90% of the battle. I've gotten even the most screwed up kids to go along with me because they knew I cared about them when nobody else did. That's why my soldiers respected me. A lot of my officers and NCOs noticed how just giving a damn made the "worst" soldiers into the "best". It's good leadership that wins in the end. Threatening people never works. You have a right to "disagree" on a counseling statement even when they tell you otherwise.
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No, this isn't normal unless someone gave you a verbal order to attend, then it's not voluntary. You seem to be describing PLDC. I'm confused on what "training" this is. I had mock boards with my NCOs who agreed to hold them when I asked for help. If I didn't show up, of course they'd be upset. As for your friend, a mock board (and any board) is close doors so you don't know what really went on, only what your friend said happened. If they did submit UCMJ action for shaking at a mock board JAG would throw it out. I was sent to JAG after being "late" once because of a shift change made without my knowledge. JAG through it out because it was an "anomaly" (rare occurrence, like seeing an eclipse) and it was such a substantially minor issue that no judge would waste their time on it. Plus my commanders did not directly notify me of a shift change. they claimed an NCO was a "witness to saying to notification was made" but no NCO claimed to be the one to actually give notification. I simply stated there was no notification and JAG agreed because no NCO ever came forward saying that they had directly notified me of the change. NCOs do stupid shit to scare you, it's a sign of bad leadership. A real leader guides their soldier in the direction the soldier desires, therefore allowing the soldier to trust and respect those that are helping lead them and get them where they want to be in life. Happy soldiers make happy sergeants. That's good leadership. Not standing around threatening people.
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So... I'm gonna go a different route than everyone else here. While it is true that the specific examples you gave are a bit out of tune, the general question still gets an overwhelming "yes." You can (and should) be counseled - positive, negative, developmental, whatever - even for voluntary activities or for "off duty" activities. If you get in a bar fight over the weekend, even if it doesn't come down on the blotter, counseling should occur. Depending on the circumstances, it can be verbal, but your leader should be counselling you on an almost DAILY basis. The Army has gotten into a paperwork driven force, and there is so much focus on the counseling FORM that many NCOs have forgotten to actually talk to and develop their Soldiers, except for that mandatory one meeting a month (which still doesn't always happen).
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No, it's not normal for a good NCO to do what you've described. One who requires some professional development and counseling of his own, yes.
Here is my suggestion, ask him if the training is on the training schedule. If he doesn't get the clue, use your NCO support Channel and CoC of it doesn't resolve
Here is my suggestion, ask him if the training is on the training schedule. If he doesn't get the clue, use your NCO support Channel and CoC of it doesn't resolve
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