Posted on Feb 22, 2018
LCpl Timothy McCain
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After the shooting in Florida many people began to say arm the teachers. But they over look that a police officer was there. As a Marine I understand how difficult it is to close on and take an active shooter even with the best training and equipment. During the Dallas shooting 11 police officers was injured and another 6 was killed. Out of all the return fire none actually hit the suspect. Infact the suspect was killed by a remote control robot carrying an explosive. The reason why the suspect wasn't killed by a well aimed handgun shot is because of what we call the fog of war. When the shooting starts panic and confusion set in and the way we deal with it in the military is continually to train for those situations week in and week out. But without a third of the training people are expecting teachers to be able to identify the location of the shooter, know the movement of other armed teachers, know the movement of the innocent students and staff, close on the shooter and fire a well aimed shot without putting any students in further danger. Is that realistic?
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SGT Avionics Mechanic
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196
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Tired of seeing mental health, gun control, etc as the blame for the increased violence. Guns have almost always been a part of American culture. So what has changed from today to, let's say, 40 years ago? One answer. Us.
Our society, our families, our beliefs, our morality, our etc. Etc. We have changed. We are to blame. Stop throwing a false narrative or diagnosis on it.
We are the problem and always will be. The problem has just gotten worse.
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TSgt Robert Wayne
TSgt Robert Wayne
6 y
I agree! There was a time when they blamed video games claiming they "desensitized" kids. It all in my opinion starts in the home. A loving home with morals teaching right from wrong praising when they do something right and punishment when they do something wrong. Many "shooters" when it comes out in court or the news will talk about how that had a rough childhood.
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TSgt Security Forces
TSgt (Join to see)
6 y
All the movies are about the guy getting HIS Justice against the bad guys, bullies or just some enemies by gunning them down. We are failing to teach our youth what it means to be in a society, a democracy when they are young. To work together for the benefit of all is now some socialist, communist liberal bad thing. All the things I was taught in the military, the sacrifice for the people around me in need is considered a weakness. Hell the laziest cop I ever worked with made rank because he kissed ass. He actually went an entire year without writing a report or arrest. A stolen car driver complained he had to cut the marked unit this guy drove to get arrested. We have lost our moral ground when the two candidates were Clinton or Trump. Truly the Kobayashi Maru of a candidate selections.
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PO1 Kevin Dougherty
PO1 Kevin Dougherty
6 y
CAPT Hiram Patterson - Living in the country, sometimes minutes can be more like hours. Especially in bad weather.
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CAPT Hiram Patterson
CAPT Hiram Patterson
6 y
PO1 Kevin Dougherty - Yes, definitely and the same for emergency medical services. In many cases houses can be hard to find.
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LT Brad McInnis
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I would like to believe that I would give it a try, it is better than doing nothing. And if I can save a few children in the process, so be it...
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CPL Joseph Elinger
CPL Joseph Elinger
>1 y
SSgt (Join to see)
Totally depends on the INDIVIDUAL teacher.
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CPL Joseph Elinger
CPL Joseph Elinger
>1 y
LT Brad McInnis
There is far too little firearms safety training emphasized & reinforced.
There are far too many accidental shootings.
Just look at the typical news on injuries after each 4th of July alone!
Now, substitute guns for fireworks.
More safety training, at every venue!!!!!!
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CPL Joseph Elinger
CPL Joseph Elinger
>1 y
SSG Victor Barac
The weapon isn't the primary issue.
The effective scenario, safety, & skill training is.
I had a 15 yr old nephew who was robbed @ knife point.
My dad wanted to give him a knife.
I said: No way, it can be used vs him.
Teach him self defense first.
He never needed a knife.
He also enjoyed the sport.
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CPL Joseph Elinger
CPL Joseph Elinger
>1 y
TSgt David Whitmore
Unless you've made peace with your Lord.
Then, you just do what you know you should & obey your conscience (the closest thing we have to his voice).
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SN Greg Wright
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I believe I could, with my minimal training. I make no claim to being a bad-ass. Zip zero zilch. But I am fairly certain I would engage in this instance, and protect my kids. If I can, why couldn't a teacher with training? But ok, say you're right, arming teachers is not the best course. Fine. Arm vets. Stick them in schools to walk the halls. 5 of them in a school like that would give pretty good coverage, and wouldn't strain anyone's budget.
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LTC Stephen Conway
LTC Stephen Conway
>1 y
SPC Terry Pitman I called them a crybaby in the sense that they were appalled or shocked that a teacher and a firearm could complement each other instead of being mutually exclusive. I just get mad when idiots left us Governors like Governor Jerry Brown Band any superintendent to allow any Kermit carrying teacher or faculty to be on campus. This is not a problem in Southern States but it is in California where its advertisers that only law enforcement can carry weapons making schools and easier Target. Like I said, this is a voluntary thing, like I said, I had a major in the Marine Corps Reserves who was my Cadet commander and history / Health teachers in junior high school who could have easily been one of those teachers to carry a sidearm. I'm from California and I'm ashamed how radical this state has become
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SPC Terry Pitman
SPC Terry Pitman
>1 y
LTC Stephen Conway Sorry. I misunderstood your comments.
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
GySgt Kenneth Pepper
6 y
They would likely face the same sort of harassment being seen by LEO in our major cities.
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LTC Ken Connolly
LTC Ken Connolly
6 y
If the civilian government was looking for the cheap and ineffective method, then just have armed guards patrolling the halls. However, what should be done is to utilize the expertise of the best security force in the world, the US Military to provide the city with a sound security plan and budget. Protecting the children is not an inexpensive endeavor nor should it be.
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Is it realistic to believe that a teacher could effectively defend against an active shooter, using an AR-15, armed with only a handgun?
CPT Jim Schwebach
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Edited 8 y ago
I have the privilege to live in a school district that has had armed staff members for the past four years. There are prominent signs posted at the entrances to the school grounds and at building entrances announcing that fact to one and all. My grandurchin has been a student there for three years. I attend school functions such as six week awards ceremonies, programs, lunch visits and vet visits regularly. We've had a number of sleepovers and parties here for her and her BFF's(Cows and horses and dogs, oh my!) The point is that I know the staff at the school and I know a lot of the kids at the school. I've never seen any evidence of guns in the school. No armed teachers prowling the halls. No suspicious bulges on the ankle, at the waist, in the armpit or any place else on any of the staff. And as for the traumatic impact of guns in school on the kids there, there's no evidence of that either. I've never heard a student mention that her teacher or the vice principal or the maintenance guy had a gun. Kids are not stupid or unaware; if guns were upsetting them they would know who had one, where it was and who had what kind of weapon. And they'd talk about it. They talk about everything. I've never heard a word about guns at school. From staff or students.

The policy of arming school staff here has had none of the negative effects the talking heads have been postulating. In actuality the policy has contributed to a happy, secure and effective school system.

Wouldn't surprise me any that those great big red and white signs announcing the policy may be the most effective part of the policy.
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CWO2 James Mathews
CWO2 James Mathews
>1 y
Capt. J Schwebach:
Sir: I am very glad to hear of your success with your school systems security actions. I sincerely wish that I had been so fortunate as to have been a teacher in your school. However, my experience has been somewhat different. I agree with you that children are both smart, and observant. However, I am also sure that such skills apply to any child who has in some way been mistreated, insulted, or harassed by other students, and who has determined to "Get Even" with his parent's gun and the risk of his/her own life! Which seem to be the problem in many of the past tragic events. Perhaps a system or plan of review of those children who display signs of a troubled situation instead of being ignored by teachers or specified school staff might be helpful to the students as well as to the school system as a whole.
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COL Jon Lopey
COL Jon Lopey
7 y
CPT: We did the same thing in my county and it worked great. The teachers were screened and received training and I signed the CCW permits. Unfortunately, California legislators later took that discretion away from school superintendents, which was, in my opinion, a bad idea. You bring up some excellent points that are well-supported by my observations as a law enforcement administrator and there are studies that support your comments. COL L
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Cynthia Starks
Cynthia Starks
>1 y
Captain Jim - I have always thought negatively about arming teachers and other staff at school; however, reading your reasoned argument for them may have changed my mind. I think you are also right when you say the big signs spelling this out may be a very significant part of the deterrent. Whatever we can do to keep our precious children safe at school I am ready to consider. Thanks for your post.
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SGT Randall Patsches
SGT Randall Patsches
6 y
I agree with arming and training this willing. Most mass shooters are actually mentally I'll cowards. Sorry but true. Most will not go to a site that they think is dangerous!
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SPC Joseph Wojcik
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The concept is that by arming teachers, or having visible security, you are creating a deterrent.
The deterrent hypothesis has some merit, I mean when is the last time someone tried to assault a gun show?
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SPC John Waisman
SPC John Waisman
>1 y
Some people tried to rob a sushi bar a month or so ago. These are people who are used to the handling of sharp knives. The robbers lost and ran out of there quick.
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SFC Robert Walton
SFC Robert Walton
>1 y
Cynthia C. - All this equipment, people, Assets, already exist, however schools and school districts and legislators, are against it for a number of reasons.
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CAPT John Harman
CAPT John Harman
>1 y
None of those reasons are particularly good ones...
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SPC Travis Grizzard
SPC Travis Grizzard
>1 y
SPC David Willis
Let's talk about school shootings. Compare the number of school shootings where teachers and staff are banned from being armed to the number of school shootings at schools where teachers and staff are not banned from being armed.
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SGT Dave Tracy
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Edited 8 y ago
Regardless of where one stands on guns in general, one thing needs to be clearly understood: Guns are not going to go away.

Setting aside the legal, historical and cultural aspects, one is left to contend with the simple truth that guns exist and will forever be present. Americans in general don't like being told what to do, and the passion of much of the gun owning American public leads me to believe that--if only on principle--many will simply never give them up. And the harder its pushed, the harder they'll push back.

There's no magic magnate that will suck up all guns in the US; and military or government officials scouring the countryside , kicking in doors to every household in the country looking for guns will never happen (and frankly would be a bloodbath if it did). Too many people are basing their opinions regarding what "should" be done on what they wish could be done, not based on the reality "on the ground". The reality is there's hundreds of millions of guns, and no amount of wishing will get them all or even most. Its time to deal with things as they are, even if you hate guns to the core of your being.

While one can find isolated incidents throughout history, mass shootings on the scale we have had in the last, oh say 25 years, was not really a thing in the workplace or schools. For those of you NOT of an age to have lived prior to this period of high-profile mass murder, you might not be able to understand that there was a time when no one worried about going to work and having a disgruntled employee blast away at everyone or that the picked-on kid will come to school to kill as many as he feels needs to feel his pain. You certainly will find it unimaginable that gun safety was ubiquitous in American schools then and that in many, generally rural, parts of the country it raised NO eyebrows when kids would bring their firearms to school to go hunting before or after class.

The guns have always been there. All kinds of guns. For every weapon an American Grunt carried into the field, there was a civilian counterpart. Something has changed in society; I'll let y'all fight over what that "something" is. But that's the reality. So in conclusion, if one wants to find solutions, start by accepting the reality.
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SPC John Waisman
SPC John Waisman
>1 y
CPT (Join to see) - That's how you do it. I've wanted to delete posts in the past and couldn't. Thanks, captain.
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SPC John Waisman
SPC John Waisman
>1 y
I think there are a myriad of psychological factors that have come into play in recent decades that could be related to the increase in workplace and school shootings. Video games depicting first person shooter violence. Violence in the movies and on TV (much more graphically than in the past). Violent wars all over the world ("Wars and rumors of wars"). The increase in one parent families. These are just some of the things that might be responsible. I'm sure there are others.

But also this could be groupthink; the "everybody's doing it, so it's okay if I do it," kind of thinking. Like a contagion.

My questions: where are all the geniuses to solve this problem? How can we *not* put all our resources into the solution?
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COL Jon Lopey
COL Jon Lopey
7 y
Dave; You are probably right about guns. However, I reside in California and our esteemed politicians are doing everything they can to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. They haven't done so yet but they are working on it. The key to gun ownership is like most things in life -Even though gun ownership is a right like many things we enjoy in this great nation, if you act responsibly and lawfully, things usually work out well for you and those around you. Thanks for the commentary.... COL L
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Kathy Shingleton
Kathy Shingleton
>1 y
100 thumbs up from me!
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Cpl Software Engineer
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I'd bet money the teachers who died shielding the children would have stepped up. Considering four trained officers didn't engage the enemy during an active shooter situation, what is the worst thing to happen? There is no perfect answer, but, at a minimum allow, the teachers the opportunity to step up. The alternative of doing nothing will just embolden the psychopaths hell bound on destruction.
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Brad Miller
Brad Miller
7 y
LTC James McElreath - What teachers? Aside from a couple when I was knee-high to a grasshopper than broke rulers across my knuckles ...
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LTC James McElreath
LTC James McElreath
7 y
I am not sure where you went to school, but glad I did not go there!
As a police officer I would not wish to see more guns in the schools and more importantly a scared teacher. The police entering the building (whenever) would inevitably will end the life of any person/ teacher carrying a gun. Keep in mind they are there because someone has a gun!
I had the misfortune of being a cop called to a shooting in progress, but it was in a residential high rise. All focus was on the guy trying to kill us once we found him. Had anyone come out carrying a gun he would had met the same greeting as the shooter. The unknown is what gets people killed.
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COL Jon Lopey
COL Jon Lopey
7 y
CPL: I think you are right - At least you give the teachers a chance to save kids, which I think is worth the risk. Semper Fi, COL L
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MSG Lonnie Averkamp
MSG Lonnie Averkamp
6 y
I am a retired cop, and the Overwhelming Majority of School Resource Officers who I have known were less-than-stellar Street Officers. They were reluctant to do warrant arrests, drug entries, aggressive investigations, or one-man traffic stops at night.

Schools were nice, safe places where they could hide and give D.A.R.E. talks, hand out coloring books, get pats on the back from the Mayor, and receive Corporal Pay, while not working nights, weekends, or holidays.

Oh, a School Resource Officer who "dodged" a dangerous situation. As the Chief of Police said in Casablanka, when he saw the gambling that he was being paid off to ignore, "I'm Shocked!".
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PO3 Donald Murphy
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27
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We're assuming the killer is as accurate as Chris Kyle. The alarm goes off and the doors close. The shooter knows that behind each door is an armed teacher. Armed with what? What level of training? Who knows? Might be a former vet teacher, might be a newbie college grad teacher. Hard to say.

America's only real holiday is Black Friday. Remember the two lady's choking each other in Macy's over a purse? How about the grown man that shot a college age kid over an X-box (or similar) in Walmart? You don't hear stories about that anymore do you? Why? Because from November 1st to February 1st, we enter a time period known as: "the holiday season." And during "the holiday season" stores are allowed to generously bend the rules, security wise. Mall cops are allowed to be armed, stores that don't normally have security, suddenly do, etc. Now think about your life and how you act. Has your teenage daughter EVER come home crying "OMG I LIKE SO COULDN'T SHOP AT THE MALL BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE GUNS KEPT DISTRACTING ME."

No. You've never heard that. Have you yourself ever come home "early" from a black Friday event because of "too much security?" No. You've never done that either. So the bottom line is that you, the American, have learned to...

LIVE WITH GUNS

during the time period from November to February. So here's an idea: extend the holiday period. Instead of November 1 to February 1, make it November 1 to October 31. Make it all year. Extra armed security everywhere. Snipers on the roofs at sporting/concert events. Metal detectors in theatres and libraries. More armed cops in schools. Now, note that in nations like England, France and Australia that have "successfully" (LOL) banned guns, crime has never truly gone away, has it? So yes, there will still be crime. But hopefully the crime will be like it was in Pearl, Mississippi where the young moron stood up, announced his intention to kill and the fully armed vice principle drew his .45 and took him out.
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MSgt George Cater
MSgt George Cater
8 y
Well said with logic so indisputable that there is no chance our touchy feely politicians will act upon it. But I surely pray they do.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
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The Dallas police faced a shooter from an unknown position, the situation in school shootings is that the shooter is in the same room or hallway, so the range advantage of a rifle doesn't offer a distinct advantage. While the focus in recent shootings have be AR's, handguns are still the most likely weapon and again, no range advantage. I would see no reason that a reasonably trained amateur couldn't be a real deterrent.
The other thing to consider is that mass murderers do not pick victims that can fight back.
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LTC Stephen Conway
LTC Stephen Conway
8 y
Can't tell Florida HS kids that and progressives that.
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Sgt Field Radio Operator
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Edited 8 y ago
LCpl Timothy McCain Why not try it? The alternative is to let more students get killed. Not all teachers, but some, especially veterans could respond. The police officer will have to answer why he did not respond. If I was a teacher with a weapon, I would have no problem confronting this shooter. Keep in mind that most of these shooters are not professionals.
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Sgt John Steinmeier
Sgt John Steinmeier
8 y
MSgt George Cater Sheriff Grady Judd, the Mattis of Florida Sheriffs
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MSgt George Cater
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LTC James McElreath
LTC James McElreath
7 y
I have said it once I have said it several! You must improve security in the school. This involves hardening the entrance(s) to the school. There is no reason anyone should be roaming the halls with exception or the teachers and students. Many schools have storage rooms attached to their classroom. There his room that could be hardened and have the means to lock them from the inside. This scenario can be practiced much like a fire drill, tornado etc. Place deadbolts on every scassroom door and a dead bolt, an additionally a bolt that attaches to the door and through thew floor or prop rod somewhere by the door.
We pay plenty to keep our money safe, along with our homes alarmed! Spend the money to harden the school and protect any future harm to our children at school. But might cost additional money/levy to pay for this.
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Sgt Field Radio Operator
Sgt (Join to see)
7 y
LTC James McElreath - I agree Colonel.
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