Posted on Aug 24, 2014
SSG Robert Burns
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Confederate flag
Im doing this pole in reference to another question since it can't be added to it after the fact. No response is necessary if you don't want to, just trying to take the survey. If you'd like to comment you can go to this thread as well. https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/displaying-the-confederate-flag-on-your-pov-or-person-while-on-a-military-installation
Posted in these groups: E83e9618 Confederate Flag
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SGM Jeff Bullard
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Not a majority of Americans, just the uninformed or the socially awkward ( snow flakes). It's our country's history which is very important to what we are today and what we'll become tomorrow.
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Capt Christian D. Orr
Capt Christian D. Orr
7 y
Amen! Political Correctness run amok.
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LT Strike Warfare Officer
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To me, the Confederate flag is heritage. I also acknowledge that one of the variants flown has since been used by ignorant hate groups. As a Southern gentleman, I apologize to everyone who has been offended by the sight of that flag. It embarrasses me when I see the flag everyone associates with racism. It sickens me that a flag which internally stirs pride is also something so tainted that I feel like I have to hide my pride, lest I be judged by ignorance and associated with that hate.

This is why I prefer the real "Stars and Bars," the Confederacy's first national flag. It is much more discreet, isn't as widely smeared with hate and racism, and invites conversation from those who actually recognize that flag. It's my way of displaying my pride without offending anyone.

Some might respond by asking why I don't just put the flag away from the get-go and carry it in my heart, so I don't offend anyone? If I take down my flag because it offends someone, then I am giving up my rights as an American. Aren't we equal, after all? It is my right as a free American to proudly display my heritage, just as it is your freedom to express yours. If someone were to approach me and tell me to haul down my flag because it was deemed offensive, I would be offended by their lack of consideration for my history. Our culture of sensitivity is destroying our diversity and freedoms. Anyone can claim anything as offensive and use that as leverage for personal gain.

This brings me to a general discourse in American history. In the years since the Revolution, the question of representation and power in the national government was heavily contested. There had been earlier threats and attempts of secession in America's history as a country. These instances were fueled by friction between states and the Federal government. The Northern states were smaller and had less power politically and economically compared to the geographically larger and agricultural South. The advent of the Industrial Revolution and its progress by the 1850s had given the North enough chips on the table to call the South's dominance that had existed since 1776. To further solidify their cause in the face of an international audience, they injected a moral dilemma that had plagued the Founding Fathers: slavery (Lincoln would eventually write the Emancipation Proclamation to prevent the South from gaining formal recognition and alliances from Europe). It had been present in the continent since the first Europeans arrived in one form or another, growing into a critical factor of economy. It was ultimately not addressed by the generation that forged our nation, so the next inherited this issue, which had further embedded itself in the fiber of our economy. Many looked to the Industrial Revolution as a possible end to slavery, which would replace people with steam equipment in the fields and factories (referring to the Irish and other immigrants up North). Some speculate that slavery would have died naturally had the Civil War not occurred.

My ancestor was born in New York in 1829 and lived there until 1850. He moved to Georgia with his family, as his father sought a better climate for his ailing wife. She died in 1851. In the decade leading up to the war, my ancestor's father built the first steam-powered mill in the state and advocated the adoption of industry in the South. This didn't sit well with the local elites, since they were agriculturalists. They drove my ancestor from their church and they were forced to find another with a more agreeable congregation. My ancestor married his wife in 1852 in the middle of the night on a back road in the rain because the town didn't approve of a Northern industrialist's son courting a Southern Belle. They thought he was after her money she was set to inherit when her father passed. Well, her father passed and she inherited the money, along with twelve slaves. Her first act was to free every single one of them. She opposed slavery, which was one of the reasons why she was able to connect so well with her husband. Rather than try to keep them for a chance to join the farming elite, he supported his wife and advocated their freedom.

When the war began, my ancestor was chief of the volunteer fire brigade and generally well-liked by the public of his town (despite being at odds with the local elite farmers and plantation owners). He formed his own company of volunteer infantry for Georgia's army as its captain, and by 1862 was in the thick of the fight in Virginia. By the war's end, he had risen to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel of his regiment, elected by his men, and was killed in a charge at the Battle of Monocacy on July 9th, 1864. His men revered him so much that his body was returned to Georgia in 1866. He fought for the State of Georgia's rights as a sovereign entity, in accordance to the Constitution. His cause was as pure as that of our Founding Fathers. In short, he was fighting for a place called home.

I think many of us can agree that we do not universally approve of the situation in the country today. There is a rift between the "ruling elite" and the rest of We the People. Such was the case in the American South. Slavery was formally listed in several states' reasons for secession - because it was the plantation owners who had the money to back the Confederate Government, were the Confederacy's politicians - those who stood back to preserve their "cotton empire" while patriots such as my ancestor marched off to give their lives for their honorable cause. I dare someone to tell me that based on a study of primary resources, that all Germans were Nazis who wanted to rule the world and wipe an entire group of people out. Many were simply Germans who wanted to defend their homes and loved ones. Others were German nationalists who wanted to see Germany rise from the ashes of the Great War. They were not racists or filled with hatred. However, history is written by the winners of wars, which is why we highlight the Nazis and the Holocaust, yet quietly ignore Japanese-American internment camps that existed here in these United States.

Was the Civil War about slavery? For the elitist who stood to lose his empire at the hands of the Lincoln Administration - yes. For the American South - no. Is the Confederate flag a symbol of hate and racism? For many - yes. For some who take a moment to consider both sides of the picture and respect all angles of history - no. Regardless of your take on the matter, I ask only one thing: the right to be proud of my ancestor and honor him. I respect your freedom to take pride in your history, so why can't I?
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SGT Team Chief
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Racism. The confederacy went to war and seceded from the union on the sole principle of slavery. It drove their economy and when the Union pushed for the abolishment of slavery the confederacy feared a collapse of their life style and economy.

It is absolutely about racism.
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SGT Team Chief
SGT (Join to see)
9 y
Not just, no. However that doesn't omit the fact it was primarily driven on the cultural and political principle of slavery. That being what it is, the confederate flag has as much room for support and recognition as the nazi flag does in Germany. They celebrate inhumane principles and ideals and deserve no respect by anyone what so ever.
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LTC George Shell
LTC George Shell
9 y
1% of the landowners owned slaves....1%. The 99% were not going to war for that 1% just like the North would not fight for the reason alone of slavery. History shows this, so it's not even my North or South opinion.
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SGT Team Chief
SGT (Join to see)
9 y
With respect LTC Shell unless you can provide some factual basis to support your 1% claim you'll have to forgive me for not taking you at your word as I can't find anything to statistically support that comment at all.
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LTC George Shell
LTC George Shell
9 y
Adjusting my math a bit...The U.S. government had a slave census, and it showed that 1.4% of households owned one or more slaves, and a very small subset of those had more than 5 slaves. You can get your information from a reliable source like www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/document... or you can believe the misinformation. When the civil war was fought, less than 6% of households in the Confederacy actually owned a single slave. You might also read former Virginia Senator Jim Webb's book, Born Fighting, for corroboration of these. Additionally, as was pointed out to me by a historian, slavery lasted longer under the US flag much longer than it did under the Confederate States. Doesn't make it right and not making any apologies for actions that happened 150 years ago, but it's the hard truth.
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SSG(P) Photographer/Owner
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No. I don't care who you are. The Confederate flag is not racist. Anybody that says it's racist needs a serious history lesson
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Capt Christian D. Orr
Capt Christian D. Orr
9 y
Amen. But too damn many people prefer emotionalism to rational historical fact.
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SSgt Conventional Maintenance
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Personally, being from the south, I know the heritage and the original meaning of the flag. Now a days the flag is meant as a southern pride kind of thing that purely expresses where you're from. While some do use it still as a mark for racism, my experience is that the general use of it now is again..southern pride. I don't see anything wrong with it. I personally don't have one, but I have several friends, black and white, that show the flag with pride of home and not hate.
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CPT Christopher Webb
CPT Christopher Webb
9 y
Awesome. I am one of those Texans.
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SSgt Conventional Maintenance
SSgt (Join to see)
9 y
I'm not trying to win over anybody's opinions with what I said. I'm just trying to tell it how it is from someone who is from there and was raised around it. Y'all can state the history and the hate of it all you want. I hate wooden paddles because I used to get whipped with them all the time, but I'm not going to damn everyone that has one. In the here and now the flag is completely dependent on the person who wields it. It has a history, yes, but it doesn't have to stand for that history. The flag is more or less a marketing tool now a days. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.
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SSgt Conventional Maintenance
SSgt (Join to see)
9 y
Gun
This image here is a Gun. To many people it is responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths. To many people it is a symbol for hate, war, propaganda, or anything else bad you can think of. But is the weapon responsible for all of those deaths? Did it ask for all the hate to be brought upon it? The answer is no. It was the people using it those ways that bring that kind of symbolism to it. Just like the confederate flag was used for the same principles, it is not the flag that should take the blame. It should be the people that used it for those reasons. Those people are dead and gone along with the reasons they used that flag for. It is just a symbol of the south like the American/union flag was for the north. Even if the confederate flag was taken away, it wouldn't change a damn thing. Racism would still be alive and well wherever you went regardless of what flag is flown.
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COL Charles Williams
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SGT (Join to see) Good question. I have answered this before, as this is a recurring theme. I show this in class (the flag and other symbols) when we discuss cultural diversity, prejudice, stereotyping, discrimination, and racial tension. The reactions are interesting to say the least.

I believe the answer to your question is "it depends." It depends on where you are from in these United States. As a white guy from the NJ/NY Metro area, my initial reaction it is a symbol of hate. As a career Army Officer, I would say it depends the perception Soldiers seeing it. I fully understand my brothers from the south say it is about heritage and history. I also know when I was a TAC at West Point (95-97) the local USMA crowd was outraged when the Citadel Football Fans were waiving confederate flags at Michie Stadium during a football game. And, I know I made several Cadets displaying them in their rooms, take them down, and Yes I explained why.

The bottomline is this... Is someone offended by it? If the answer is Yes, then it needs to be addressed. That is what leaders do.

Or... try this. Say you are black Soldier, from say NJ, and you are reporting to your Commander for a disciplinary matter, and behind his desk his/her is confederate flag hanging from the ceiling. How would you feel?
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SGT Traffic Accident Investigator
SGT (Join to see)
9 y
Sir,
I completely see where you are coming from! I agree as a Leader if something offends one person then it is offensive period and we as Leaders need to address the issue. Great response sir! Off topic I was stationed in FLW and know alot of people there. You wouldnt happen to be working at the DES would you?
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
9 y
SGT (Join to see) No I was the 342nd Commander, PM, and DES 03-05, and Garrison Commander 09-12. I know work at Waynesville HS.
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CPT Christopher Webb
CPT Christopher Webb
9 y
Sir, I enjoyed reading your post. However, it all seems to apply mostly to the rather unique environment of the Military. I can also imagine large corporations having similar policies. But what flag flies on the pole in front of the common civilian's home is a matter of personal choice and, I dare say, free speech.

Certainly it cannot be denied that the Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of racism and/or hatred ... but all symbols symbolize something different to different people. The Confederate Battle Flag is also a symbol of Southern Pride and Heritage, a symbol of the indivisibility of the United States (as it exists to remind us of that fact).

It just depends on who is looking at it as to what it symbolizes. But where it, or anything else, disrupts unit cohesion then it really doesn't matter what it symbolizes to individuals. If one soldier is offended then it is enough.

It just ain't like that out here in the civilian world.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
9 y
Roger CPT Christopher Webb Thanks, and I was thinking of military days. In my new world (education) we are in like opposite world. And, I happen to be in South West Missouri, which is largely rural and white. So, you see plenty of these around schools.
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SSG Gerhard S.
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Edited 9 y ago
The war between the states was not started over slavery. If you doubt this you should read the words of Abraham Lincoln regarding his beliefs, and his position on the matter.http://m.livescience.com/18863-civil-war-myths.html
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SSG Gerhard S.
SSG Gerhard S.
9 y
1LT L S , I doubt you'll find ANYBODY on RallyPoint that A. Thinks slavery was a good thing. B. Believes that the War between the States was not ultimately responsible for the end of slavery in the U.S. C. Thinks that the Southern States were not racist, or did not believe they had the right to keep and hold slaves.

All of these are givens. What is NOT a given is the idea that the War Between the States was initiated, for the purpose of freeing the slaves. Again, the results can't be argued, but the causes CAN. This is where your arguments (though not incorrect) miss the mark of the cause-effect relationships that culminated in the hostilities that became to be the (incorrectly labeled) "Civil War". I say incorrectly labeled because a Civil War because the South did not seek to wrest control of the government of the US. Instead they only sought to peaceably and voluntarily secede from a union they had previously peaceably and voluntarily joined.

As to the reasons behind the secession, though it is true some of the Southern States cited restrictions on Slavery as their issue at hand, they did not resort to hostilities over the issue, they simply declared they no longer wished to be a part of the United States. Lincoln simply wouldn't have it. Also, if there is any doubt as to Pres Lincoln's position on the institution of slavery, his own words should suffice to make it clear.

"Pres. Abraham Lincoln was personally against slavery, but in his first inaugural, he made it clear that placating the Southern states was more important. Quoting himself in other speeches, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

President Lincoln also wrote this.... "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."

Each of the Seceding State" articles of secession have words similar to this from South Carolina.... "The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union..."
None of the States articles give mention of wishing to go to war, or to incite hostilities against the North. It was the North who wanted to reign in the seceded States that sought to keep the union together at all costs.

So, to recap, Slavery was a terrible thing that had to come to an end. The Southern States DID largely cite the North's restrictions on Slavery as a reason for their SECESSION from the Union. Lincoln, and the North wanting to preserve the Union at all costs, provoked hostilities by refusing to vacate forts on seceded Southern soil.

If one wishes to make the case that the Southern States had no right to secede, that their place in the Union was irrevocable, and this led to war, then one would at least be making an argument that actually had something to do with the cause of the war. When one claims the war was prosecuted to end slavery, one is simply ignoring the facts of the cause of the war, in favor of the end result of the war.

Respectful regards, as always 1LT L S
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SSG Gerhard S.
SSG Gerhard S.
9 y
1LT L S , on a side note, I ran across this while doing some research... an interesting viewing.
http://blackhistorymonth2014.com/526/black-confederate-soldiers/
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SSgt Marshall Franklin
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To it is a dark time in or history. We need to remember that time as to not repeat it. There are too many hate groups that use that flag. To me it is anti American and should only be seen in history books or Museums. We are American's and above all else part of the human RACE. To claim that flag as part of your heritage, its like claiming to be part of a group I won't say. So yes that flag is racist.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
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There's no heritage, it lasted 4 yrs and they lost.
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SPC Carl K.
SPC Carl K.
9 y
That is like saying that the Continental Army Flags have no historical significance.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
LCpl Mark Lefler
9 y
actually its not.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
LCpl Mark Lefler
9 y
thats partly why they lost, they also lost because the North assigned some generals (grant and sherman) who had some balls.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
LCpl Mark Lefler
9 y
Actually custard was never incharge of the army of the Potomac, you need to read up on the CG's of the North.
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Capt Jeff S.
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It's part of America's history. The flag itself is now simply identified with the South and no longer should be viewed as a symbol of slavery or insurrection.
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