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From "The Guardian"
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
It’s rather difficult to compare data from different time periods, according to different methodologies, across different parts of the world, and still come to definitive conclusions.
But now that we have built The Counted, a definitive record of people killed by police in the US this year, at least there is some accountability in America – even if data from the rest of the world is still catching up.
It is undeniable that police in the US often contend with much more violent situations and more heavily armed individuals than police in other developed democratic societies. Still, looking at our data for the US against admittedly less reliable information on police killings elsewhere paints a dramatic portrait, and one that resonates with protests that have gone global since a killing last year in Ferguson, Missouri: the US is not just some outlier in terms of police violence when compared with countries of similar economic and political standing.
America is the outlier – and this is what a crisis looks like.
EDITORIAL COMMENT:- Do you agree with The Guardian's characterization of (roughly) 350 deaths per year (that's roughly 0.000097% of the US population) as a "crisis"?
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
It’s rather difficult to compare data from different time periods, according to different methodologies, across different parts of the world, and still come to definitive conclusions.
But now that we have built The Counted, a definitive record of people killed by police in the US this year, at least there is some accountability in America – even if data from the rest of the world is still catching up.
It is undeniable that police in the US often contend with much more violent situations and more heavily armed individuals than police in other developed democratic societies. Still, looking at our data for the US against admittedly less reliable information on police killings elsewhere paints a dramatic portrait, and one that resonates with protests that have gone global since a killing last year in Ferguson, Missouri: the US is not just some outlier in terms of police violence when compared with countries of similar economic and political standing.
America is the outlier – and this is what a crisis looks like.
EDITORIAL COMMENT:- Do you agree with The Guardian's characterization of (roughly) 350 deaths per year (that's roughly 0.000097% of the US population) as a "crisis"?
Firearms and Guns
Crime
Police
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 27
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For about the first six to seven months of 2008, morning news reported at least one homicide (non-cop related) in the southern Philadelphia and Northern Delaware region. That's a lot of deaths in a small portion of the country. Needless to say, I don't agree with this article's view.
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If you haven't had or known anyone that has been killed by the police for no reason. I guess not. But if is someone you've know or your family then it would be a problem. It not your problem until its your problems.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
The whole continuing story is a political tactic to divide and anger the populace. When you read deeper into the stories and step into the cop's shoes, you will see both view points. Politicians on the left are trying to divide and anger people. Hitler did the same thing. Don't fall for it.
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MSgt (Join to see)
I have seen numerous accounts of officer involved altercations and shootings that people thought happened for no reason. Luckily, body cameras and vehicle cameras proved otherwise.
I see a bigger issue going on. The degradation of our society.
I see a bigger issue going on. The degradation of our society.
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SFC Mcglen Odom
I guess you can say the same for bystanders with their cameras. Prime example the incident in Texas and Charleston South Carolina. No one saying that all them are bad but the ones that are. Are better than the criminals and should be charged as such.
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SFC Mcglen Odom
https://www.facebook.com/TheYoungTurks/videos/ [login to see] 214205/
The Young Turks - Cop Who Freaked At Black Teens In Had A... | Facebook
Cop Who Freaked At Black Teens In Had A Disturbing Past
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LTC (Join to see)
Is there a real problem with crime in the US? Is there a real problem with the number of officers killed? CPT Faried you seem like a bright young man. Why don't you volunteer at your local police department and see what they do and how they do it. It may help shape your opinion or maybe you will have some answers to this problem. My agency trains police volunteers and reserves. You could contribute in either capacity and help shape the future.
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SGT Kristjan Rahe
Virtually every police department in the country today has a citizens academy. I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone that is concerned with policing in this country. There is a lot of armchair quarterbacking if I may use the term generically and as a veteran and retired LEO I can say that many do not realize the duties performed by LEOs (I include jails also) daily. A LEO is killed every 58 hours in this country. There are hundreds injured every years, many seriously and permanently. It is a dangerous job with hazards beyond being shot. I am glad to see the conversation but I will say that especially during the events in Ferguson , etc. some criticism that was made by veterans was ill informed and Ill advised without having full information on tactics. Police tactics are not military tactics though there are some similarities.
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This read as a skewed and biased article against American law enforcement. Many of the numbers mentioned here don't really correlate to try and match up statistics.
There are techniques used in other countries that we would never consider. Have you ever seen a Polizei knock the crap out of someone with one of their spring loaded batons? Kind of takes away your willingness to act a fool. And their police normally carry Uzi's in the open when they are doing crowd control. Again, takes away the desire to act foolishly. Other country's laws are much different about the freedoms and rights of the accused compared to the U.S. as well.
My overall answer is NO, we do not have a "Police Killings" issue in the U.S. We just have a media that feeds off of negativity and trying to spin everything that occurs into a major catastrophe.
There are techniques used in other countries that we would never consider. Have you ever seen a Polizei knock the crap out of someone with one of their spring loaded batons? Kind of takes away your willingness to act a fool. And their police normally carry Uzi's in the open when they are doing crowd control. Again, takes away the desire to act foolishly. Other country's laws are much different about the freedoms and rights of the accused compared to the U.S. as well.
My overall answer is NO, we do not have a "Police Killings" issue in the U.S. We just have a media that feeds off of negativity and trying to spin everything that occurs into a major catastrophe.
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COL Ted Mc
CW2 Carl Swanson - Mr. Swanson; You are quite correct that many of the numbers don't really correlate. It is pretty difficult to "correlate" at times. Just taking the numbers for Canada and the US, for example, and then adjusting for the difference in population size the number for Canada would be (25x9=) 227 per year while the number for the US would remain at 1,029 (both for 2014). [NOTE:- The "official" number for the US is lower because not all police departments actually reported all deaths.]
A link to the Guardian's data site follows.
In any event, even at roughly 1,000 per year that would make it only the 57th most prevalent cause of death in the US (00031% of all deaths).
I have never seen a German police officer knock the crap out of someone with one of their spring loaded batons - I've seen the results but not the actual beating. I've also never seen an American police officer knock the crap out of someone with one of their old fashioned non-spring loaded batons - but I've seen the results. I do admit that having it happen does tend to reduce the eagerness of the beatee to engage in similarly foolish behavior.
As for "crowd control" if you haven't seen the (pre-return) Hong Kong police in action then you haven't seen it done right. Of course there BOTH sides knew what the rules were and played by them. The "mob" KNEW that, when the shotguns were cocked it was time to go home because the police WOULD fire into the crowd.
You are, however, partially correct with respect to "the rights of the accused". SOME countries have an incredibly different view of the judicial process. For example, in France (and other 'Code Napoleon' countries), the job of the court is to try to find out what actually happened and the Judges are allowed to question witnesses. This wouldn't be allowed in the US. In some other countries, the courts have ruled that trials MUST be held within a "reasonable period" following the laying of charges and that delays longer than what is "reasonable" will result in the charges being dismissed. And in some countries the courts have the right to tell the lawyers that their submissions are pure drivel that no intelligent person would give even the slightest credence to (in the US the courts have to accept whatever the lawyer says as if it actually made sense [as long as the lawyer is polite when they say it]).
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database#
A link to the Guardian's data site follows.
In any event, even at roughly 1,000 per year that would make it only the 57th most prevalent cause of death in the US (00031% of all deaths).
I have never seen a German police officer knock the crap out of someone with one of their spring loaded batons - I've seen the results but not the actual beating. I've also never seen an American police officer knock the crap out of someone with one of their old fashioned non-spring loaded batons - but I've seen the results. I do admit that having it happen does tend to reduce the eagerness of the beatee to engage in similarly foolish behavior.
As for "crowd control" if you haven't seen the (pre-return) Hong Kong police in action then you haven't seen it done right. Of course there BOTH sides knew what the rules were and played by them. The "mob" KNEW that, when the shotguns were cocked it was time to go home because the police WOULD fire into the crowd.
You are, however, partially correct with respect to "the rights of the accused". SOME countries have an incredibly different view of the judicial process. For example, in France (and other 'Code Napoleon' countries), the job of the court is to try to find out what actually happened and the Judges are allowed to question witnesses. This wouldn't be allowed in the US. In some other countries, the courts have ruled that trials MUST be held within a "reasonable period" following the laying of charges and that delays longer than what is "reasonable" will result in the charges being dismissed. And in some countries the courts have the right to tell the lawyers that their submissions are pure drivel that no intelligent person would give even the slightest credence to (in the US the courts have to accept whatever the lawyer says as if it actually made sense [as long as the lawyer is polite when they say it]).
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database#
The Counted: people killed by police in the United States in 2015 – interactive
The Guardian is counting the people killed by US law enforcement agencies this year. Read their stories and contribute to our ongoing, crowdsourced project
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If you only look at the number of people killed by cops and not the the population of the county it can certainly look that way. But its not. when you compare the number of police contact to shooting its less than 0.5 of 1%. Their was an article with the stats on this not to long ago. People seen to think they have a right to assault LEO and the LEO cant fight back. I am not saying that some cops are shooting when they shouldn't but even the Race batters who challenged the and failed the shoot don't shoot training.
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Suspended Profile
The problem is that we, as a government, train cops to be a paramilitary force, and recruit heavily from the military ranks. I think that's a mistake. You can't take war fighters and sit them at home, telling them to patrol the place. Cops need to be all about conflict resolution rather than force. It's one more in a list of bad decisions we made as a nation post-9/11.
SGT Juan Soriano
To: SCPO BOWERMAN
Well said, I know exactly what you are talking about and mean. People that haven't experience it don't know, why they even think to mention it.
If they have never experienced the streets in certain areas of the cities, please analyze the comments or words.
Thank you sir...
Amen!..
Well said, I know exactly what you are talking about and mean. People that haven't experience it don't know, why they even think to mention it.
If they have never experienced the streets in certain areas of the cities, please analyze the comments or words.
Thank you sir...
Amen!..
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SCPO (Join to see)
No, I'm standing up for and representing the police, no Mess. I'm so old we didn't have that, anyway. You make statements of fact, and then say they are "opinionated statements." You talked with your many MP and civilian cop friends. How many, where? What a crock!!! You weren't born when I returned from one war in Viet Nam, and started fighting another one on the streets of Kansas City. Warriors make great cops. They stay the course. Grocery clerks and librarians last a year, tops. "Cops need to be all about conflict resolution than force." God damn, but I'd pay anything to see some powder puff expert in law enforcement matters like you (yeah, you talked with your many cop friends, some MP, others civilian) spend a week alone in a cruiser on the streets of any big American city, and you can pick it, and do the job without ANY force. Conflict resolution. Good catch phrase. Timmy Big City, here, folks. Riiiiiight!!!
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Suspended Profile
You're such a tough, cool dude. I wish I could be as cool as you. I bet your dad could beat up mine and everything.
SCPO (Join to see)
First, my dad was a minister for sixty-two years and, second, he's been dead for five years.
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COL Ted Mc
CMSgt Schubert; "The problem" isn't so much "criminals that are killed by police" as it is "NON-criminals that are killed by police and criminals who are unnecessarily killed by police".
When the courts are prepared to give a police officer a pass on killing an unarmed person who is not actively involved in committing an act of violence on another person and who is not actively threatening the police officer because the police officer thought that the deceased might be a threat, well, that doesn't engender any respect for either the courts or the police. AND, it also engenders a tendency towards an "active defence" on the part of those who the police deal with.
When the courts are prepared to give a police officer a pass on killing an unarmed person who is not actively involved in committing an act of violence on another person and who is not actively threatening the police officer because the police officer thought that the deceased might be a threat, well, that doesn't engender any respect for either the courts or the police. AND, it also engenders a tendency towards an "active defence" on the part of those who the police deal with.
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CMSgt Mark Schubert
Sir - oh, I completely agree - but the percentage of "police killings" that are really "NON-criminals" is extremely low and rare. I was talking about the majority in reference to the article.
I also have faith in our justice system that the exception for a "pass on killing an unarmed person who is not actively involved in committing an act of violence on another person and who is not actively threatening the police officer" is also very rare. If that were to happen, then the officer should be held accountable - and *is* in almost all cases.
I also have faith in our justice system that the exception for a "pass on killing an unarmed person who is not actively involved in committing an act of violence on another person and who is not actively threatening the police officer" is also very rare. If that were to happen, then the officer should be held accountable - and *is* in almost all cases.
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COL Ted Mc
CMSgt Mark Schubert - Chief; We aren't that far apart, but you do appear to be overlooking the "criminals who are unnecessarily killed by police" bit.
I don't think that anyone has any real problem with the police defending against an active threat to themselves or others - even if that defence involves the use of lethal force. [I most certainly don't.]
Where the line gets a lot fuzzier is when the police apply lethal force to someone who is NOT an active threat and then "justify" doing so on the basis that the deceased had a criminal record and/or might have committed a totally non-related crime sometime in the fairly recent past.
IF - please note the "IF" - there is a disproportionate (which means in terms of the actual relevant ratios involved) number of "A"s being killed by "B"s (where "B"s have the legal authority, in some circumstances, to kill people) then there is "A Problem". What remains to be seen is "How big is the actual problem." - because we simply don't know if there is a "disproportionate number" involved.
PS - "Ideally" no police officer should ever have to kill anyone - but that simply ain't gonna happen.
I don't think that anyone has any real problem with the police defending against an active threat to themselves or others - even if that defence involves the use of lethal force. [I most certainly don't.]
Where the line gets a lot fuzzier is when the police apply lethal force to someone who is NOT an active threat and then "justify" doing so on the basis that the deceased had a criminal record and/or might have committed a totally non-related crime sometime in the fairly recent past.
IF - please note the "IF" - there is a disproportionate (which means in terms of the actual relevant ratios involved) number of "A"s being killed by "B"s (where "B"s have the legal authority, in some circumstances, to kill people) then there is "A Problem". What remains to be seen is "How big is the actual problem." - because we simply don't know if there is a "disproportionate number" involved.
PS - "Ideally" no police officer should ever have to kill anyone - but that simply ain't gonna happen.
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SCPO (Join to see)
Your third paragraph, Colonel...cite real examples. I'd like to know where you get your information on police shootings.
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