Posted on Apr 27, 2016
Is there an AR stating that a Specialist has to go to parade rest for a Specialist?
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I'm am a specialist assigned to a infantry unit, in my squad we have two team leaders who are also specialist. I respect that they are team leaders. But lately they have been giving corrective training for not going to parade rest or by not addressing them as specialist when I myself am a specialist. Is there an army regulation or anything supporting there actions?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 137
Don't confuse your rank with their position. I just left command of a 420 person company where I had numerous LTC's and COL's, but as the commander I outranked every single one of them by position. I didn't need to throw my position around, but ultimately my orders were lawful. Wherever there is a lack of manpower or overly competent personnel (every unit) you are going to have people in positions above their pay grade. Your situation is the exact same thing.
By virtue of position those specialist can give you lawful orders. Calling them a specialist and their last name rather by name only is an appropriate courtesy. Standing at parade rest if they tell you to, is also appropriate. Ultimately they are issuing lawful orders to you and you know the position they hold. If you disobey them, you would be punished and your defense wouldn't cut it. I do believe your company should get to work and make some of these SPC's into CPL's. However, it is a good test for them to develop as leaders and if you don't like it, get yourself in position to be promoted and you will have your own team. Not everything is in an Army Regulation, but trust me on this one. You don't want to find out you were wrong upon visiting trial defense services prior to your article 15.
By virtue of position those specialist can give you lawful orders. Calling them a specialist and their last name rather by name only is an appropriate courtesy. Standing at parade rest if they tell you to, is also appropriate. Ultimately they are issuing lawful orders to you and you know the position they hold. If you disobey them, you would be punished and your defense wouldn't cut it. I do believe your company should get to work and make some of these SPC's into CPL's. However, it is a good test for them to develop as leaders and if you don't like it, get yourself in position to be promoted and you will have your own team. Not everything is in an Army Regulation, but trust me on this one. You don't want to find out you were wrong upon visiting trial defense services prior to your article 15.
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SGT Christopher Till
SGT Gary Stemen that would make sense given he would still be with specialist in his unit he was in charge of, e-5's and above can only be demoted to e-4 if I remember correctly
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MAJ Michael Cummings
CPT Mark Gonzalez I was a HQ CDR once myself and while you have "Command Authority" over the senior officers with the exception of your commander, you are effectively and administrative clerk herding sheep who is responsible for making sure all of the administrative tasks of that element are completed. They still "outranked" you.
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CPT Earl George
I had a SP4 Platoon Sergeant in my 4.2" mortar platoon in Germany in 1973. I had no E-5 or above NCO's and 9 SP'4 personnel.
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TSgt Carl Johnson
CPT Mark Gonzalez - As an NCO I often called my subordinates sir or ma'am. Respect goes two ways. I had an airman tell me that I didn't have to call him sir. I told him I didn't have to, I did it because I wanted to, he deserved it based on performance and attitude, and that I hoped he could feel the same way about me.
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SPC (Join to see) - Your post reminded me of this little riddle:
Q.) What you call a Captain-select?
A.) Lieutenant
Keep in mind that they hold a billet. So, both learn from them... and teach them how to be better SPC's. Sounds like they're trying to establish some ground rules for their soldiers. Sure, it might be annoying that you're the same rank. But, extend that professional courtesy. You'll be a better leader for it --especially when you assume their billet.
Q.) What you call a Captain-select?
A.) Lieutenant
Keep in mind that they hold a billet. So, both learn from them... and teach them how to be better SPC's. Sounds like they're trying to establish some ground rules for their soldiers. Sure, it might be annoying that you're the same rank. But, extend that professional courtesy. You'll be a better leader for it --especially when you assume their billet.
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SFC Don Ward
SSG Stephen Wondercheck - Today that is referred to as toxic leadership - proving that BS and chickenshit has gone on since the early days of the army. That does nothing for discipline and a lot for causing unneeded friction.
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SSG Stephen Wondercheck
SFC Don Ward - You can call it whatever you would like to call it... but if you look at all the bad leaders we have now and how no so disciplined the military is in all branches.. I feel that our military is weaker now... there is too much drama in the units and all of BS of being politically correct who cares its about getting the mission done and everyone coming home from deployments alive.. . that's just my two cents in the topic... thanks
oh ya and by the way I have had some very toxic leadership my own PLT SGT was f**cking his own soldier... so that just goes to show how not disciplined the military is and how they dont follow their own values!
oh ya and by the way I have had some very toxic leadership my own PLT SGT was f**cking his own soldier... so that just goes to show how not disciplined the military is and how they dont follow their own values!
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MSG (Join to see)
This is exactly why I could never have done AD. I would just tell him to get bent and do whatever "corrective action" the NCOs dealt out later. My authority has never come from the square on my chest, but that's just me.
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Specialist Richardson,
B.L.U.F
Stand at parade rest because its position over rank. However, if you want some insight continue reading. As an infantryman this is standard practice. This is an opportunity for both yourself and that team leader regardless of rank to develop both tact and resilency. There are going to be situations that you as the Soldier may or may not agree with, but you will execute them. They'll be giving these orders in their own name but remember they do come from higher. If outside of work you both carry a cordial relationship use the time outside of work to help mentor and mold if the opportunity should come up. If all else fail then simply put it in perspective and reverse the roles what would you do? Also taking into account who your peers and subordinates are then trying to ID the correct leadership style.
B.L.U.F
Stand at parade rest because its position over rank. However, if you want some insight continue reading. As an infantryman this is standard practice. This is an opportunity for both yourself and that team leader regardless of rank to develop both tact and resilency. There are going to be situations that you as the Soldier may or may not agree with, but you will execute them. They'll be giving these orders in their own name but remember they do come from higher. If outside of work you both carry a cordial relationship use the time outside of work to help mentor and mold if the opportunity should come up. If all else fail then simply put it in perspective and reverse the roles what would you do? Also taking into account who your peers and subordinates are then trying to ID the correct leadership style.
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Perhaps this quote of General John J. Pershing would solve these questions if we just followed it.
“In a society where a man is placed in a superior position to another, if he is a gentleman, he never thinks of it. In the same society when a man is placed in a subordinate position to another, if he is a gentleman, he never forgets it.”
“In a society where a man is placed in a superior position to another, if he is a gentleman, he never thinks of it. In the same society when a man is placed in a subordinate position to another, if he is a gentleman, he never forgets it.”
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Capt (Join to see)
When I was a young airman I had to make a sign with this quote that was hung at the passenger terminal at Travis AFB. I never forgot the quote.
And that was over 55 years ago.
And that was over 55 years ago.
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From the IG desk: Common military protocol requires being addressed by rank, then name. I am, to every military person I meet, to be addressed as "Colonel Hudson" regardless of the rank of the individual addressing me. However, this requirement may be softened in certain environments with the approval of all concerned. When faced with a situation of similar rank all around - then the individual with the oldest date of rank would be noted as the de facto ranking member IF placed in a leadership position. If conflict arises due to this understanding, then all participants should meet with their ranking NCO or Commander and hash the matter out. Your question as to "parade rest" lacks context for me to be definitive, but I am not aware of any requirement of two military individuals of equal rank to have one standing at parade rest while addressing the other, regardless of date of rank. During my career, I have seen such issues resolved by designating the E-4 in a leadership position as a Corporal with two 'hard stripes,' providing a proper visual recognition of that individual's position and responsibilities. This is also a matter to be resolved by your senior NCO and Commander if you feel you are more deserving of the position than the incumbent.
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SFC Anthony Petrelli
Absolutely agree with you Sir. This could all be resolved by a 4187 signed by the commander appointing the senior SPC as a CPL until such time as he/she is promoted to SGT. As to Parade Rest there is no regulation requiring a soldier to stand at parade rest. This is customary to the enlisted corps, and is a sign of respectful attention to the superior.
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SGT Jeremy Nelson
SFC Anthony Petrelli - I was in a unit where the LTC refused to appoint anyone to CPL if they were not a 19D. So those of us that supposed to be "scouts first" were not given CPL even if we had passed the board etc and were team leaders so that made it a little more difficult, just had to find other ways to assure cooperation, frankly I think those of us in that position were afforded the chance to learn different leadership skills.
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SGT Chad Goethe
Sir, I agree with most points here, other than the parade rest. Due to the fact that the Team Leader holds a leadership position, he is to be accorded such, and if at such point as he chooses to allow a person of equal rank (but lower position) to not stand at parade rest, that is his choice.
In regards to command laterally promoting the Team Leaders to Corporal, in my experience (and it may be different in other units), a Specialist would never pin Corporal stripes until he had been to the board, passed it, and became promotable to E-5.
In regards to command laterally promoting the Team Leaders to Corporal, in my experience (and it may be different in other units), a Specialist would never pin Corporal stripes until he had been to the board, passed it, and became promotable to E-5.
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A Team leader in an Infantry squad is and normally reserved for an E5. The Specialist in this position is assuming that authority under the auspice of the Company commander. Therefore they should be respected and treated as a Sergeant as they are acting as such. Now they should be mentored and coached ensuring that they do things correctly. Lastly, the SSG, Platoon Sergeant or Platoon leader should have briefed your squad as to the state of the COC.
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SSG (Join to see)
It holds no weight in a negative counceling, nor should it, if that Specialist is giving corrective training it should be coming from the Squad Leader who I assume is an NCO.
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MCPO Roger Collins
Positional authority. I was on a submarine where the top enlisted and advisor to CO/XO was an E-8, CHIEF OF THE BOAT. Two of us were promoted to E-9, but the COB was still senior due to position. All were mutually respective and there was no problem.
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This was an issue back in my E-4 days. Bottom line, you respect the position and support your team leader. You may be in that position one day and you would want the same.
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No actual reg stating you stand at Parade Rest for them. But they are your Team Leaders...therefore they are higher in the food chain than you are. Always remember the phrase "Position comes before rank." Might as well start standing that way now because apparently your CoC sees potential in them and they will more than likely make SGT soon....then you WILL have to stand at Parade Rest. You may not like the person, but you need to respect their position.
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GySgt Ascencion Gomez, D.S.L.
So if they are filling the OIC's billet you are rendering a hand salute too?
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
GySgt Ascencion Gomez, D.S.L. No offense Gunny, but I’ve witnessed Marines in the rank of E2 stand at parade rest for those in the tank of E3 as well as an E4 standing at Parade for another E4.
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SGT Ruben Lozada
SFC Livingston, I concur. This occurs within many Infantry units. Especially if that Team Leader has been deployed and has a unit combat patch. I recall I had to stand at parade rest when addressing My TL. Because I was a new SPC without a combat patch.
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I am not infantry by any means, but I thought that team leaders were Corporals. I think having the "hard" stripe would help in this situation. Having said that, I would just pick a better battle and play the game.
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SGT Jeremy Nelson
1SG (Join to see) - I know in my squadron it was not automatic, happened only if the soldier had passed the board, and even that was not a given. This was for 4ID and 1st CAV.
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SGT William Shelton
When I deployed one of my pfc friends that was considered “high speed” was made a team leader. And as someone that was an e4 team leader for more then 90 days there are no lateral promotions to cpl without passing a board atleast in my old infantry units.
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SGT Chad Goethe
SFC Squires, I was a Specialist Team Leader, the way my unit did it was that no TL was ever pinned with corporal stripes until he had been to the board and passed, thus making him promotable, and was serving in a TL position.
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