Posted on Apr 17, 2015
Is this a 2nd or 4th Amendment issue?
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2nd Amendment
4th Amendment
Shooting (Sport)
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 6
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Typical Liberal anti #2A BS. They would take all veterans 2A rights away if they could. In their pathetic little minds we are a threat to them.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
SSG John Erny
I am a liberal, progress and am a wounded and decorated war veteran with a combat badge and stars. I also have a Concealed Carry ticket and go to the range twice a month.
I also feel very strongly about mentally disturbed individual having access to weapons and untrained yahoos walking around with ARs on chest clips.
I am a liberal, progress and am a wounded and decorated war veteran with a combat badge and stars. I also have a Concealed Carry ticket and go to the range twice a month.
I also feel very strongly about mentally disturbed individual having access to weapons and untrained yahoos walking around with ARs on chest clips.
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SSG John Erny
SPC Jan Allbright,
I agree with you on not wanting the mentally ill armed, but the problem here is due process before the law. These things should be heard in a court of law, it is our right as Americans. For example you have a doctor who hates the 2A and would bend over backwards to put everyone he could not the ban list. It is the Judge who should have the final say.
When I use the term liberal I am not talking about rank and file democrats, I am talking about the Likes of Nancy Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein, etc. People Like that are gun abolitionists. The Lunatic fringe if you will.
No disrespect to you intended SPC Jan Allbright
I agree with you on not wanting the mentally ill armed, but the problem here is due process before the law. These things should be heard in a court of law, it is our right as Americans. For example you have a doctor who hates the 2A and would bend over backwards to put everyone he could not the ban list. It is the Judge who should have the final say.
When I use the term liberal I am not talking about rank and file democrats, I am talking about the Likes of Nancy Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein, etc. People Like that are gun abolitionists. The Lunatic fringe if you will.
No disrespect to you intended SPC Jan Allbright
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Individual Rights do not exist in a vacuum. Just because something is one Right doesn't mean it is also another Right as well.
In this case, it is BOTH.
The Right to self defense is inherent. You have the Right to defend yourself period. No amount of Due Process takes that away.
What this is about, is whether there is appropriate mechanisms in place (Due Process) to ensure Rights are not being violated. In this case, is you Medical Privacy being violated? Is your Second Amendment Rights being violated? Does it matter which Right is being violated? Shouldn't there be a JUDGE involved, not an "administrative" process? That's the linchpin of Due Process.
In this case, it is BOTH.
The Right to self defense is inherent. You have the Right to defend yourself period. No amount of Due Process takes that away.
What this is about, is whether there is appropriate mechanisms in place (Due Process) to ensure Rights are not being violated. In this case, is you Medical Privacy being violated? Is your Second Amendment Rights being violated? Does it matter which Right is being violated? Shouldn't there be a JUDGE involved, not an "administrative" process? That's the linchpin of Due Process.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Good points! The "Due Process" is a slippery slope. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court allows for wiretapping citizens phones is a completely secret organization with no oversight, yet it is "Due Process".
Good points! The "Due Process" is a slippery slope. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court allows for wiretapping citizens phones is a completely secret organization with no oversight, yet it is "Due Process".
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
SSG Buddy Kemper
hummmmm ... I am remembered of a story I learned from law school ... Most law schools are 3 years in length and the students are called 1L, 2L and 3L.
When you ask a 1L a legal question, the answer is usually "I don't know".
When you ask a 2L the same question, the response is a complete citing of all applicable law with binding precedents and major opposing opinions.
When you as a 3L the same question, the response is "It depends"
hummmmm ... I am remembered of a story I learned from law school ... Most law schools are 3 years in length and the students are called 1L, 2L and 3L.
When you ask a 1L a legal question, the answer is usually "I don't know".
When you ask a 2L the same question, the response is a complete citing of all applicable law with binding precedents and major opposing opinions.
When you as a 3L the same question, the response is "It depends"
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SSG Buddy Kemper
SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. I remember that old line that there are more students in law school now then there are lawyers on the planet. Did a little research and found that 2012 stats are the median income is $113,530 per year for attorneys. The best one in our town, the one that most cops and DAs don't want to tangle with makes between 200k and 300k...but has had years he made half a million or more. And he is a very very sharp dude. Was an all American quarterback at our hometown college back in mid-70s. Would be interested to know what the percentage of attorneys are in congress, bro. I'll close with this: What's the difference between a good lawyer and a great lawyer? A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge.
Blessings to you Jan. Cheers. Have a great weekend.
Blessings to you Jan. Cheers. Have a great weekend.
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OK, lets say a veteran is badly injured in a car wreck and will be hospitalized by the VA for 6 months. The veteran is not mentally Ill, the veteran is injured and will recover. The VA says while your hear you are going to have to get some one to manage your bills back home. Should that veteran loose their 2A rights? Hell No!
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
SSG John Erny
And when you can find a case of this then we can discuss it.
Here we are talking about individuals that have been adjudicated as mentally disturbed.
Whether that adjudication is correct is a real question.
And when you can find a case of this then we can discuss it.
Here we are talking about individuals that have been adjudicated as mentally disturbed.
Whether that adjudication is correct is a real question.
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SSG John Erny
We can not have the information; HIPA or the the health information privacy act is the law, Medical records are private. I am just saying that all should have due process before the law. If some one is off their rocker they in no way should be allowed to have a fire arm. My concern is that people who are not could also get caught up in the system, look at how many other things the VA has screwed up. A judge will side with the doctor every time if it is in fact a mental health issue.
My previous post was a hypothetical were a mistake could be made.
My previous post was a hypothetical were a mistake could be made.
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The question becomes who is making the decision and what are the criteria.
Some could be argued that anyone wanting a gun is mentally troubled. Others could argue that one who killed others was justified.
Lots and lots of areas for abuse here.
Some could be argued that anyone wanting a gun is mentally troubled. Others could argue that one who killed others was justified.
Lots and lots of areas for abuse here.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
Capt (Join to see)
Indeed sir. How are these folks adjudicated to be mentally disturbed, by what criteria and by whom. When and how are these discussions reviewed?.
If there are guns about and you don't want to have one I should think that is a sign of mental disturbance as well.
Indeed sir. How are these folks adjudicated to be mentally disturbed, by what criteria and by whom. When and how are these discussions reviewed?.
If there are guns about and you don't want to have one I should think that is a sign of mental disturbance as well.
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Well, calling it a 4th ammendment issue would be downright wrong. Everytime the VA takes an adverse action against a Veteran, the Veteran is notified and is given 3 months to respond before any action takes effect. A Veteran gets due process before he's assigned a fiduciary. I'd say it's a second ammendnet issue.
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CPL David Salazar
SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. , it's a fine line and mistakes are gonna be made. The VA needs to fix the way appeals are handled. People can wait up to 5 years waiting on an appeal decision. Of course, we could write volumes on proposed changes and problems with the system.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
When People's Right's are being denied "mistakes" are not acceptable. Not for 5 minutes. Especially not for 5 #%^#^ years. The fact that you even imply that it could be...
That's not due process. That's bureaucracy, and horrible bureaucracy at that.
That's not due process. That's bureaucracy, and horrible bureaucracy at that.
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CPL David Salazar
People get executed by mistake under conviction in a court of law. I'm not saying it's excusable, I'm just being realistic about terrible things happening and acknowledging their existence. I imply nothing.
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CPL David Salazar
I'm not saying it's right or just, I'm just trying to stay on topic of whether I would consider this a violation of your second or fourth ammendment rights. It is a violation, and a gross one at that. However, I would say because of the process, flawed as it may be, this wouldn't be an infringement on one's fourth ammendment rights. If you wanna talk about the problems in the process, hell, we could split a bottle of whisky on that topic.
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