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NCOs
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The NCO WILL ALWAYS BE THE BACKBONE OF THE ARMY! !!!!!!!!!!
The Officers come up with the ideas and the NCO makes it work.
If anyone tells you different, smile and keep on going.
The Officers come up with the ideas and the NCO makes it work.
If anyone tells you different, smile and keep on going.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SFC Kenneth Hunnell - It is you I owe an apology to, my last response came off much more harshly then intended.
I sometimes forget, I am a product of my environment and experiences, and others are of theirs.. sometimes the two can seem like different worlds and I forget that.
Yes, I knew SGM/CSM(s) that would not recognize the wetness dripping from their brow as sweat and likely go on sick call thinking they were ill. Those that thought physical labor, or even being in the misery on site, evaluate, lead from the front beneath them.
They would watch from the comfort of a warm vehicle and shout stuff out the window. Sit in the office and drink coffee and have subordinates call them on a cell phone and tell them whats going on so they can make "decisions" and tell the folks on the ground what to do.
I liked Senior NCOS like that, as it meant they were out of our way and we could get the job done..once done and the commander ecstatic the train got loaded, the ammo point moved, the patrol prepped, moved to the distant location with no losses of combat equipment... they would run to tell the CDR what a great job they did, and then yell at me later for not keeping them informed ..pfffft, who cares, Men taken care, job done, CDRs intent met....and for the most part, those commanders KNEW the deal......NEXT....
But those were the few I had to work for, with. The Majority from BN to III CORPS were in it to win it.. Yes sometimes that means they never left the office for a week... but thats only because they had folks on the ground they trusted which freed them to sit with the commander in the planning briefs to keep the staff on track, it meant he could take that call from the SMA, be in the VTR with the Army CofS, talk with the XO and ADCM about a better way to implement training and new equipment management. BUT if I called and said, CSM, I need you here..NOW... He would have been there, in the rain and cold, or heat and sweat soaked with the rest of us....
It bothers me to no end, you said what you said...not because you said it, but because you were let down enough times that the the impression you got.
I sometimes forget, I am a product of my environment and experiences, and others are of theirs.. sometimes the two can seem like different worlds and I forget that.
Yes, I knew SGM/CSM(s) that would not recognize the wetness dripping from their brow as sweat and likely go on sick call thinking they were ill. Those that thought physical labor, or even being in the misery on site, evaluate, lead from the front beneath them.
They would watch from the comfort of a warm vehicle and shout stuff out the window. Sit in the office and drink coffee and have subordinates call them on a cell phone and tell them whats going on so they can make "decisions" and tell the folks on the ground what to do.
I liked Senior NCOS like that, as it meant they were out of our way and we could get the job done..once done and the commander ecstatic the train got loaded, the ammo point moved, the patrol prepped, moved to the distant location with no losses of combat equipment... they would run to tell the CDR what a great job they did, and then yell at me later for not keeping them informed ..pfffft, who cares, Men taken care, job done, CDRs intent met....and for the most part, those commanders KNEW the deal......NEXT....
But those were the few I had to work for, with. The Majority from BN to III CORPS were in it to win it.. Yes sometimes that means they never left the office for a week... but thats only because they had folks on the ground they trusted which freed them to sit with the commander in the planning briefs to keep the staff on track, it meant he could take that call from the SMA, be in the VTR with the Army CofS, talk with the XO and ADCM about a better way to implement training and new equipment management. BUT if I called and said, CSM, I need you here..NOW... He would have been there, in the rain and cold, or heat and sweat soaked with the rest of us....
It bothers me to no end, you said what you said...not because you said it, but because you were let down enough times that the the impression you got.
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
SGM Erik Marquez - You don't owe me any appolgy.
I spent my first 5.5 yrs. active duty, "Regular Army". I know old school.
The reason I am still is because of the Soldiers, nothing else. I will be forced out in 2020
I spent my first 5.5 yrs. active duty, "Regular Army". I know old school.
The reason I am still is because of the Soldiers, nothing else. I will be forced out in 2020
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
SGM Erik Marquez - The first time I saw a General actually run, I almost fell over in shock. That was in Afghanistan
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When I came in the NCO ran almost everything.... I hardly ever spoke to my LT.... the NCO is the backbone of the army and that's what it needs to be....soldiers don't fear or respect a NCO or paperwork.... this needs to change...
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SGT (Join to see)
Sgt Justin wills ......I call it the welfare mentality... they want everything handed to them....work for nothing...respect very little and are overly sensitive at times..... in the army you gotta have think skin at times by take constructive criticism
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT Efaw for me personally I do it all the time due to the rank and as respect... because thats how I was taught in the army....I still give the greeting of the day to any NCO that out ranks me or when I am talking to a fellow SGT I call them by their rank and name because I wanna be that example that soldiers will see and follow...
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SSG Malcolm "Chris" Canada
If you are an NCO, and you say soldiers don't respect the NCO's in your unit, that makes it your fault. You are given the authority and tools to make on the spot corrections. Use them. I've heard this complaint over and over, it's nothing new—but the truth is we NCO's support and enforce our Commander's intent. We lead by example and we advise our Commanders. Trust me, PL's are watching and learning from the NCO's. They have Platoon Leader time so they can gain real leadership experience. So lead by example because your leadership style influences those around you. The unit and your soldiers are what you make of them.
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SGT Michael Davis
I had a few guys right out of basic that lacked professionalism. that didn't last long with propper motivation and mentoring. Its my job to enforce the standard. Its my job to educate my soldiers in the manners in which to do everything. Some of those soldiers have it down from day one some need to be taught and thats my job. If they fail, i fail and i don't like to fail. If your soldier puts his used tp in the trash and not in the toilet you teach him how to use plumbing. If youre soldier is dirty you teach him how to clean either himself his clothes or his living space. My job isnt done when the formation is over my job is done when its done.
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SGT (Join to see) You may want another photo here. That Officer is the BG from Bragg who was court martialed, reduced and retired for sexually harassing women.
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To see who really has the power in the Army all you have to do is read the NCO Creed.
"No one is more professional than I. I am a Noncommissioned Officer a leader of Soldiers. As a Noncommissioned Officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of Noncommissioned Officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.
Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind -- accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a Noncommissioned Officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, Noncommissioned Officers, leaders!
If you strive to be the NCO in this document then there is no power struggle.
"No one is more professional than I. I am a Noncommissioned Officer a leader of Soldiers. As a Noncommissioned Officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of Noncommissioned Officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.
Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind -- accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a Noncommissioned Officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, Noncommissioned Officers, leaders!
If you strive to be the NCO in this document then there is no power struggle.
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I understand your frustration, or at least what I am interpreting as frustration based on further comments. A couple of points that I will add to the discussion for thought.
1. From your position it may seem like micro-management, when in all actuality these Officers are continuing to get refined guidance from their higher and as decisions get made or closer to being made they refine the decision the NCO is giving.
2. Mission Command does not mean being able to just go with whatever decision the leader at the lowest level makes and go with it. I know you did not bring up Mission Command, but it seems like many of the conversations have been hinting around it.
3. There are no more positions being created for Officers than their used to be, in all actuality there are new positions being created for "aides" to nominative CSMs.
4. Officers have always and will always have the power in the Army, we are the ones that sign the orders. The true power behind these Officers though is the development of the trust with the subordinate leaders that work for that Officer, this is the ultimate lynchpin in Mission Command.
1. From your position it may seem like micro-management, when in all actuality these Officers are continuing to get refined guidance from their higher and as decisions get made or closer to being made they refine the decision the NCO is giving.
2. Mission Command does not mean being able to just go with whatever decision the leader at the lowest level makes and go with it. I know you did not bring up Mission Command, but it seems like many of the conversations have been hinting around it.
3. There are no more positions being created for Officers than their used to be, in all actuality there are new positions being created for "aides" to nominative CSMs.
4. Officers have always and will always have the power in the Army, we are the ones that sign the orders. The true power behind these Officers though is the development of the trust with the subordinate leaders that work for that Officer, this is the ultimate lynchpin in Mission Command.
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LTC (Join to see)
SFC Kenneth Hunnell I would caveat what you said, with getting Soldiers to do the right things, or what they have to do without saying a word. Ultimately someone has to give an order to do something though.
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
Until the Officer comes up with a ultimate goal or Idea. The NCO does not know what is wanted, call it an order or not. The Soldiers will do their job to achieve the goal of the Officer. The NCO monitors what is being done and makes sure with the help of the Officer the resources are there to achieve the goal set by the Officer.
The true power lies with everyone that is in on the idea
The only power that an Officer has is formulating the idea or "Order"
Anyone that is in charge has said it one time or another, if someone messes up his or her idea, they are the ones that take the fall.
So, it is the power of the Soldier to decide to do the right thing or not
The true power lies with everyone that is in on the idea
The only power that an Officer has is formulating the idea or "Order"
Anyone that is in charge has said it one time or another, if someone messes up his or her idea, they are the ones that take the fall.
So, it is the power of the Soldier to decide to do the right thing or not
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LTC (Join to see)
"Anyone that is in charge has said at one time or another, if someone messes up his or her idea, they are the ones that take the fall. So, it is the power of the Soldier to decide to do the right thing or not."
What are you getting at? I know plenty of great leaders who know that as soon as the plan meets first contact, whether in garrison or combat, it goes out the window. None of the good leaders would ever blame this on the Soldiers.
Your last sentence sounds slightly like mutiny, who cares what the orders say, the Soldiers will do what they feel is right.
What are you getting at? I know plenty of great leaders who know that as soon as the plan meets first contact, whether in garrison or combat, it goes out the window. None of the good leaders would ever blame this on the Soldiers.
Your last sentence sounds slightly like mutiny, who cares what the orders say, the Soldiers will do what they feel is right.
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Is this a grip or a question? Sure there are bad officers: commissioned, warrant, and non-commissioned. The good ones listen. That being said, there's a time for listening and a time for making decisions. Once decisions are made, it's time to act. If an officer fails to listen or listens only to the bad ideas and advice, it's up to them to take responsibility for the outcome. Ultimately, that is my litmus test for all leaders. Who is willing to take responsibility?
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The bottom line is you as NCO are the backbone of the Army. All services NCO'S we are the standard bearers.
Power is perception meaning you need to figure out how to lead and know when to follow. Once on has determined that tact is essential in learning to be an effective NCO then you will understand power more efficiently.
We train Soldier's and they see us and immediately assume we are going to be a hardass and all things go our way, power.
Yet, in my personal growth I have learned that I can make a difference by being me. As a Senior NCO I charge you to be the backbone.
The power is yours.
Power is perception meaning you need to figure out how to lead and know when to follow. Once on has determined that tact is essential in learning to be an effective NCO then you will understand power more efficiently.
We train Soldier's and they see us and immediately assume we are going to be a hardass and all things go our way, power.
Yet, in my personal growth I have learned that I can make a difference by being me. As a Senior NCO I charge you to be the backbone.
The power is yours.
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SFC Charles S.
SFC Stephen King Exactly... Power is in the hands of the Wielder.
Make it so Number 1. or should I say 1SG.... TOP it the POWER.
Make it so Number 1. or should I say 1SG.... TOP it the POWER.
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That depends on how one defines "power". Not being able to drop someone for push-ups and sometimes being asked by junior enlisted to provide a "why" behind simple directives may be a couple of the legitimate cultural complaints leading to that impression. However, NCOs today are (on average) more thoroughly trained and formally educated than ever, and therefore often entrusted with areas of responsibility that may have previously been available only to commissioned officers. Regulatory guidance has not changed much, so many of the observations must be cultural. This can be changed/improved if it is seen as a problem at basic/AIT and NCO academies, and even more rapidly at the unit level.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Excellent advice SSG Stacy Carter. I've found examples like you described in my experience as well, and your suggested ways of managing it can do a lot to help the situation. Ultimately the job has to get done (sometimes including plenty of extra "priorities") so once you know your job well, training your team to anticipate and stay ahead of likely taskers before the boss starts asking for them can be a big stress reliever. When I was an NCO and now as an officer, knowing as much as possible about each other's jobs and anticipating each other's needs without overdoing it and trying to mind-read was often helpful.
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1LT Kathleen Heisler
I agree with you Major. I was enlisted before I became an officer. I you need to be a team but know the boundaries to get the mission done. I served during the 1980's thru mid 1990's.
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SFC (Join to see)
I gladly agree with you, sir. As one who left the Marine Corps and entered the Army, I was never a fan of the catch-all "push!" response from NCOs. In my experience, treating an active servicemember like a basic trainee is the lowest of insults. I am a proponent of the "why" approach to correction. As an NCOA instructor, I see the long-term value of explaining why a Soldier is "jacked up" every 22 days. The power is in how you use it, not in how or by whom it is given.
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SGT Gabriel Brown
I have to disagree about smoking accomplishing nothing statement. Some soldiers need the option to "get smart or get strong". Human beings are inherently incentive driven, and it generally doesn't take long for a pvt to choose smart over strong (e.g. He won't be late and hungover at Monday's formation). I firmly believe that physical repercussions should be the first line of discipline over paperwork. Jumping straight to paperwork could hinder what would otherwise be a great soldier.
I had a 1st Sgt. In the Corps that was this way. I'd rather get a wall to wall counseling followed by no Shit heartfelt conversation over an NJP (article 15) any day of the week.
On the Junior NCO level, that tree line has the potential to fix a great deal of problems. That being said, I also believe that many NCOs were never taught this, and things get out of hand, hence the army's knee jerk reaction.
Just my 2 ¢
I had a 1st Sgt. In the Corps that was this way. I'd rather get a wall to wall counseling followed by no Shit heartfelt conversation over an NJP (article 15) any day of the week.
On the Junior NCO level, that tree line has the potential to fix a great deal of problems. That being said, I also believe that many NCOs were never taught this, and things get out of hand, hence the army's knee jerk reaction.
Just my 2 ¢
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There I was...a shiny, brand new second lieutenant straight out of college ROTC and OBC reporting to my first unit, a basic training company! I knew next to nothing about the Army and how to be an officer despite the training I had received. Thank God for my Senior Drill Sergeant, SFC Rogue, a Vietnam vet, one of only three guys in the brigade with a right shoulder patch at the time. He and the other NCOs in the company took the LT under their wing and taught me what I needed to know. I learned a valuable lesson about the relationship between officers and non-commissioned from those men. It took me a while, but I slowly earned their respect, a respect that was more than just an acknowledgement of the gold bar on my collar. Those NCOs had a power and an influence on the basic training Soldiers that I didn't understand at the time. That initiation influenced the relationship I had with my NCOs for my entire career. Twenty eight years later, the NCOs I served with in Iraq and elsewhere, had the same power, respect, and influence over the Army as those NCOs who taught me my first real lessons about the real Army way back in 1985. I shudder to imagine what the Army would be like without a professional NCO corps.
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SGT Mike Reed
Well said, sir. On the other side of that coin, I was the first member of my family to enter military service in the enlisted ranks. My uncles, Marine and Air Force officers, told me stories of their time as young 2nd Lieutenants learning to lead and earn respect from the NCO corps. They taught me the finer points of the symbiotic relationship of the Officer and NCO. To me, those lessons were about leadership, mission accomplishment and the welfare the troops under your command. As a result, I had mostly excellent working relationships with the officers and NCO's appointed above me. It was never about who holds what amount of power, it was about how that power was delegated and used to complete the tasks at hand...and how we, as leaders, guided and mentored our lower EM's.
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I'm gonna come at this a little sideways. But it is only because I believe this to my heart. NCOs have more power within the Army and more power for the future of the Army than more care to realize.
It mostly starts when that NCO becomes a SSG. As a SSG you are in a unique position that enables you to still touch that PFC, and you expose that new-to-the-Army PL to the value of the NCO corp. What that LT learns from his interactions with that PSG and Squad leader will stay with him for the rest of his career. It will further be re-inforced by the way NCOs react with that young officer as he either moves into a Company XO Slot (1SG) or up to staff (S3 NCOs) as he waits for the CPT list.
In this way, NCOs have the power in the Army they need. A lot of the NCO corps has lost sight of this. And, yes there will always be that LT full of piss and vinegar not listening to anyone. But if you look at some of the great Officers out there, they will tell you about the great NCOs they had along the way.
Second thing is this Mission Command non-sense being Officer centric (I heard it in more than one place). I am by far not a Doctrine Nazi. But folks need to read what we have put in print and comprehend it. Mission command only Codifies the way the Army has been operating since about 2003. Everything that happened after March 19th was by what we now call Mission Command.
Inside Mission Command, the Role of the NCO has not changed. We are still primary trainers. We are still responsible for creating the "team" atmosphere and trust. We are still advisors to our Officer counterparts. We are still responsible for taking care of the Soldiers. And, we are sill responsible for the Esprite de Corp and Morale of the unit....
NCOs want power? take control of what is in your realm and let that expand your sphere of influence. Train your Soldiers as hard as you can. Take care of them and mentor them. Do the institutional Army functions that have been lost. Yeah Garrison Army sucks. Yeah The Army is going through some fits. And, yeah you are not always going to be heard. But the bottom line is you are an NCO, you are in the Army to defend democracy, not practice it.
It mostly starts when that NCO becomes a SSG. As a SSG you are in a unique position that enables you to still touch that PFC, and you expose that new-to-the-Army PL to the value of the NCO corp. What that LT learns from his interactions with that PSG and Squad leader will stay with him for the rest of his career. It will further be re-inforced by the way NCOs react with that young officer as he either moves into a Company XO Slot (1SG) or up to staff (S3 NCOs) as he waits for the CPT list.
In this way, NCOs have the power in the Army they need. A lot of the NCO corps has lost sight of this. And, yes there will always be that LT full of piss and vinegar not listening to anyone. But if you look at some of the great Officers out there, they will tell you about the great NCOs they had along the way.
Second thing is this Mission Command non-sense being Officer centric (I heard it in more than one place). I am by far not a Doctrine Nazi. But folks need to read what we have put in print and comprehend it. Mission command only Codifies the way the Army has been operating since about 2003. Everything that happened after March 19th was by what we now call Mission Command.
Inside Mission Command, the Role of the NCO has not changed. We are still primary trainers. We are still responsible for creating the "team" atmosphere and trust. We are still advisors to our Officer counterparts. We are still responsible for taking care of the Soldiers. And, we are sill responsible for the Esprite de Corp and Morale of the unit....
NCOs want power? take control of what is in your realm and let that expand your sphere of influence. Train your Soldiers as hard as you can. Take care of them and mentor them. Do the institutional Army functions that have been lost. Yeah Garrison Army sucks. Yeah The Army is going through some fits. And, yeah you are not always going to be heard. But the bottom line is you are an NCO, you are in the Army to defend democracy, not practice it.
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