Posted on Feb 3, 2015
Killing the Jordanian pilot by burning him alive; has ISIS finally crossed the line? What should the US do?
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ISIS and terrorists have been committing atrocities for a long time now. How much more can happen before the United States gets more actively involved? Will it take another 9/11 type event before the president finally takes the threat serious. He has a difficult time even labeling them as terrorists in some instances.
There is now proof that ISIS burned a captured Jordanian pilot alive. can the United States still stand by while atrocities like this continue?
Is it time for the President of the United States to become more active in combating the growing ISIS threat? They have made direct threats against the United States, attacked citizens in other countries, and have a growing number of followers globally, including the US.
What do you think the US should do?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/03/new-isis-video-purpotedly-shows-jordanian-pilot-being-burned-alive/
There is now proof that ISIS burned a captured Jordanian pilot alive. can the United States still stand by while atrocities like this continue?
Is it time for the President of the United States to become more active in combating the growing ISIS threat? They have made direct threats against the United States, attacked citizens in other countries, and have a growing number of followers globally, including the US.
What do you think the US should do?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/03/new-isis-video-purpotedly-shows-jordanian-pilot-being-burned-alive/
ISIS
Barack Obama
Terrorism
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 71
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- Has ISIS crossed the line? BLUF: the line was crossed several months and several events ago.
- Beheadings. Seven civilian hostage beheadings and counting if I am tracking correctly.
- Murders. Thousands and counting in Syria and Iraq. I am not talking killing enemy fighters. I am talking murders of non combatants.
- Rapes/Slavery. Thousands and counting. Probably will never know the true numbers.
- Forced conversions and refugee displacement. IE convert to Islam or die, pay a tax if you don't convert, or the minimal "we will just make life miserable for you so just leave.
- Executions for watching soccer. You see that report? Killed 17 teenagers for watching a soccer game on TV. Propaganda on our part and never happened? Possible but not probably given the other evidence.
- POW. Burned Jordanian pilot alive. Not exactly in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.
It is WAY past time for a coalition and the Muslim world to confront Islamic Terrorism. Your guess is as good as mine on if/when this will happen.
- Beheadings. Seven civilian hostage beheadings and counting if I am tracking correctly.
- Murders. Thousands and counting in Syria and Iraq. I am not talking killing enemy fighters. I am talking murders of non combatants.
- Rapes/Slavery. Thousands and counting. Probably will never know the true numbers.
- Forced conversions and refugee displacement. IE convert to Islam or die, pay a tax if you don't convert, or the minimal "we will just make life miserable for you so just leave.
- Executions for watching soccer. You see that report? Killed 17 teenagers for watching a soccer game on TV. Propaganda on our part and never happened? Possible but not probably given the other evidence.
- POW. Burned Jordanian pilot alive. Not exactly in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.
It is WAY past time for a coalition and the Muslim world to confront Islamic Terrorism. Your guess is as good as mine on if/when this will happen.
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SFC Mark Merino
Let me know if you need someone on your support team COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM.
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Cpl (Join to see)
LCpl Steve Wininger the thing about drawing lines, you have to be willing to back up your rhetoric. Otherwise you show your bluff and that you have no spine enabling the promised retribution. Similar to how the U.S. is perceived now...
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SSG (Join to see)
Why is there a line? it's not our country, it's not our people, it's not our problem. Sure it's terrible, however we should not be running around trying to police the world... or protect corporate interests overseas.
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COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM
SSG Colwell,
I respectfully disagree with "not our country, not our people, not our problem". A similar approach was taken in the 1790s against the Barbary Pirates, in the 1930s against Nazism, in the 1990s with the Taliban. All eventually became our problem. The question then becomes not if but when and how to address the problem. Do we address the problem sooner when it is a smaller and far from our shores or later when the problem is larger and on our shores? Remember that our National Security Strategy and the Army doctrine codifed within Unified Land Operations is to Shape, Deter, and Win. You are arguing that the only Army mission or the only US National Security interest is to win in conflicts only when the become "our problem". That is only one third of our mission.
I respectfully disagree with "not our country, not our people, not our problem". A similar approach was taken in the 1790s against the Barbary Pirates, in the 1930s against Nazism, in the 1990s with the Taliban. All eventually became our problem. The question then becomes not if but when and how to address the problem. Do we address the problem sooner when it is a smaller and far from our shores or later when the problem is larger and on our shores? Remember that our National Security Strategy and the Army doctrine codifed within Unified Land Operations is to Shape, Deter, and Win. You are arguing that the only Army mission or the only US National Security interest is to win in conflicts only when the become "our problem". That is only one third of our mission.
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I think they have crossed "the line," LCpl Steve Wininger, by burning the Jordanian pilot to death. Beheadings are really across that line as well, but there's something about making a person suffer death by burning that doesn't sit right with me.
When I took Intro to Terrorism 101 back in the 1980s, our professor (an Arab gentleman) told us that terrorists have to be careful not to alienate the population they are trying to influence with their actions. Burning another Muslim is probably not wise for ISIS. They seem to be all about shocking the world. They're succeeding in that, but I think they're going to fizzle out (or be snuffed out) if they continue down this path.
When I took Intro to Terrorism 101 back in the 1980s, our professor (an Arab gentleman) told us that terrorists have to be careful not to alienate the population they are trying to influence with their actions. Burning another Muslim is probably not wise for ISIS. They seem to be all about shocking the world. They're succeeding in that, but I think they're going to fizzle out (or be snuffed out) if they continue down this path.
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SGT Cort Landry
It seems as long as it isn't happening here in our country, then it is someone else's problem. I see these types of comments on my facebook feed all the time. "Why are we there meddling"... It has become very easy to point the fingers at the great satan "United States" and say this all stems from us being in Iraq and Afghanistan. Problem with that way of thinking is that this has been going on for a long time before we became involved after 9/11.... Hopefully with this latest murder of the Jordanian pilot, the rest of the world wakes up, especially our own country before this starts spilling over in our own backyard.
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COL (Join to see)
LCpl Steve Wininger thank you for letting me expand my thoughts on this...1st a terrorist group cannot "declare war" on a sovereign nation (international law, States don't recognize terrorists as sovereign groups, etc.) and while I completely understand the emotions and sentiment it truly depends on more than emotion and a desire, even more so a Compulsion of the American soul to help those in need. What is the end state we hope to achieve and is it achievable? What American interests are served - vital ones the ones EVERY American is willing to pay the costs to preserve and die if necessary in doing so? What resources will be required? What risks do you accept in other areas of the world as you commit yourself to the ME & Levant region? Who will be our allies and who will say they are our allies and kill us when our backs are turned? If we commit what will Russia do? China? How will it affect the economy and jobs at home? All of these questions must be answered. I am not saying there is a right or wrong answer to what you propose I am only saying that before our leaders ask us (the officers and NCOs) to put our troops (our family) in front of someone else using deadly force that this must be thought out carefully and not executed due to fear or anger, so that the lives that are lost are for a purpose greater than us individuals and their blood is not shed in vain as we have done in our past.
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LTC Scott O'Neil
ISIS is a bunch of bullies and they need to be dealt with in a violent manner by the country the crime has been perpetrated against. We are not the worlds police force, it is time for the world to stand up for themselves just as Jordan has. We can support allies in the region but we do not have to support revenge killing, that does not a display good fiscal common sense. If we were to jump the 82nd into every country an American was murdered in we could not meet our national defense strategy and it would be completely unaffordable. We need to continue to strike ISIS in strategic support of our allies and the US policy in that region and that is all. Revenge killing of an individual ( no matter how horrific) is not within the strategic interest of this nation .
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CPT (Join to see)
CW5 (Join to see) - I fully agree. They have made threats against nearly every population group and nation across the globe. It's laughable now....hard to keep taking them serious, especially since they can't secure their own "borders" as they declare them. I think supporting a coalition "search and destroy" on Abu Al-Baghdadi would be a GREAT start.
I found it hard to believe that they would make the tactical blunder of attacking MULTIPLE Arab nations rather than playing off the tribal divisions that have historically prevented a unified front.
v/r,
CPT Butler
I found it hard to believe that they would make the tactical blunder of attacking MULTIPLE Arab nations rather than playing off the tribal divisions that have historically prevented a unified front.
v/r,
CPT Butler
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If Im Jordanian, they've certainly crossed the line. Id called for immediate action! As an American, i dont want to be baited into fighting another country's battles, AGAIN!!! ISIS has killed Iraqis, Syrians, Americans, Japanese, and a Jordanian. Its an international crisis, not American-specific. The international community should deal with it, and stop expecting us to do everything
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Wishful thinking, we have been and continue to be the world's police force , to a point that they now expect it. I'm okay with it if the loosen the ROE and let us do our job.
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CPT (Join to see)
I've said it in other threads (probably this one somewhere) and I'll repeat it here. ISIL has declared war on the US because they have declared themselves a sovereign enitity (a Caliphate) with a capital. I say the POTUS petition the Congress to declare war on the Caliphate. If that's the status they want, then lets treat them like the beligerant nation they want to be. In my mind, that gives us and our allies legitimacy as they continue to commit atrocities on the world stage. A declaration of war is legal and founded in this case.
I have also said before (probably here) that if we do this we destroy completely. the military aparatus they have cobbled together. We don't go in to immunize kids, build schools or drill wells. We approach this as we are all taught from our earliest initial entry training- violence of action and overwhelming firepower. We make it so costly for them that other groups that want to take on the mantle of 'al Quieda' or 'ISIL' think long and hard.
Is it a long road, sure. Is it a bloody one, sure. but if we're going to do it, that's the way it has to be done.
SSG(P) (Join to see)
SFC Michael Jackson, MBA
SGT Scott Bailey
LCpl Steve Wininger
COL (Join to see)
I have also said before (probably here) that if we do this we destroy completely. the military aparatus they have cobbled together. We don't go in to immunize kids, build schools or drill wells. We approach this as we are all taught from our earliest initial entry training- violence of action and overwhelming firepower. We make it so costly for them that other groups that want to take on the mantle of 'al Quieda' or 'ISIL' think long and hard.
Is it a long road, sure. Is it a bloody one, sure. but if we're going to do it, that's the way it has to be done.
SSG(P) (Join to see)
SFC Michael Jackson, MBA
SGT Scott Bailey
LCpl Steve Wininger
COL (Join to see)
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
We always try to win hearts and minds...this allows them into our world. It shows a compassionate, weak side. No President would order the slaughter...especially not this one.
To the lab, let's create is a man- made virus that kills anyone that doesn't eat pork, or make pork the antidote.
To the lab, let's create is a man- made virus that kills anyone that doesn't eat pork, or make pork the antidote.
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CPT (Join to see)
We can win hearts and minds later, I mean really. We have done this sort of thing before- in the Philipines, during the Spanish American War (agianst Islamic extremeists no less). Protect the population and aggresivley seek out the terrorists.
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The US should continue to urge the countries of the Middle East and North Africa to face this threat head on.
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SSgt (Join to see)
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL Thanks Joe, I am so sick of gerrymandering minds and alluding to anomalies over outright terrorists.
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COL (Join to see)
Jordan and some of the other countries are ruthless. I just heard they executed the AQ prisoner.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
I have heard the same thing COL (Join to see) I figure within the week all hell will break loose, it is just a matter of where and how.
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SFC Donald LeBlanc
LTC Montalto - you hit the nail right on the head. This is a threat that should be addressed by exactly the SAME population that is being directly threatened by this terror organization. Placing US soldiers in harms way (unnecessarily) without seeking out alternative options first is a mistake we can not afford to make. This IS a Middle East problem that truly needs a Muslim response.
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Honestly, I think the line was crossed back in the days with the Beirut Marine Barracks bombings all the way to present day. This event is the tip of the iceberg. It's turned heads in the Middle East. Up to this point and time, the countries in the Middle East tolerated the Terrorists, now that it's turned against them, they've had enough. Personally, the western world has fallen into this chapter of Chamberlainesque appeasement. The terrorists commit an act of terrorism, and the western world asks itself, how can WE change to make it to these people. This is the same mentality PM Chamberlain had when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938, and yet, the Free World did nothing.
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ISIS or ISIL, whichever they are going by this week is an ideology. Therein lies the problem. The only way to defeat an ideology is to destroy everyone, and everything that was ever part of it. As long as a book, or a person, or a webpage or paper or anything remains that pertained to those beliefs, people will still follow it. Until ISIS is wiped from the planet, utterly, totally, and completely, they will be a threat to our way of life, no matter how much those in positions of power try to say otherwise.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
I agree with you some SGT dressler, however, if it is in their hearts to do evil, they will find another way to justify their actions in their own minds. If a murderer wants to murder, he will. If a terrorist wants to terrorize, he will, regardless.
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They crossed a lot of lines long before this one.
They have made a mistake. This will draw a very serious response from Jordan, and they are a position to really throw a punch. They will rue the day.
I think it will be interesting to note the contrast between what Jordan does in response to this versus what the USA did when our citizens were beheaded. I think we will learn something about ourselves.
What do we stand for?
What do we stand against?
They have made a mistake. This will draw a very serious response from Jordan, and they are a position to really throw a punch. They will rue the day.
I think it will be interesting to note the contrast between what Jordan does in response to this versus what the USA did when our citizens were beheaded. I think we will learn something about ourselves.
What do we stand for?
What do we stand against?
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The Jordanian responded by executing two high valued ISIS terroist then increased their attacks.
America should follow that lead...for every one American or Allied that is executed by ISIS,
Two ISIS terrorist held in Guantanamo Bay should be summarily executed.
Good old fashion 2 fer 1 sale would send a strong message that terrorist play time is over & clear out much need space for new terrorist.
America should follow that lead...for every one American or Allied that is executed by ISIS,
Two ISIS terrorist held in Guantanamo Bay should be summarily executed.
Good old fashion 2 fer 1 sale would send a strong message that terrorist play time is over & clear out much need space for new terrorist.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
SFC (Join to see) I totally agree with you, sadly the administration likes the five for one trade, and it is not in our favor.
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LCpl Steve Wininger, I think they crossed the line a long time ago. The U.S. and other countries simply need to get together, stand up and crush them. In the words of General James Mattis, USMC Retired, "Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact.”
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LCpl Steve Wininger
@LTC Stephen C. i totally agree with you sir. I am hoping this execution will be the one that binds everyone together. I also like how other countries are going after anyone who publicly supports ISIS.
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I'm going to focus on the second question. What do we do?
I'm outside the military now. Maybe I see things differently. First, I know that the men and women in uniform can and will accomplish any mission that CAN be accomplished. However...
How do we kill ISIS? I submit that ISIS is an idea, implemented by men. You cannot kill an idea. We can kill the fighters, but how do we stop the "pipeline" of fighters? I challenge anyone out there to show me an example where military power ALONE stopped an idea from spreading. I will not go into the idea behind ISIS.
Many mention the "evil" nature of ISIS and its actions. I do not believe that Evil can be killed or destroyed by a military. I'm afraid that trying to destroy Evil is a bottomless grave. I'm not saying that we must look away because there's nothing we can do. Our military is capable of tremendous achievements. I'm saying that as a nation, we need to decide EXACTLY what we can do, then decide if we're WILLING to do that. In my worldview, we can "fight and suppress" Evil and push back The Darkness. As long as men walk the earth, Evil exists.
I want these vile, cowardly criminals stopped as much as anyone. I'm concerned that our rush to "do something" may result in throwing more Americans into a fight where they don't have an end-state (I.e., a realistic set of ROEs).
If it was my golf course, I'd go after the cowards giving speeches and professing to know the will of their god. Kill the people spreading the poison and MAYBE the more moderate voices will turn off the pipeline.
I have FULL and UNQUALIFIED confidence in the ability of the US military. I'm concerned that there's no actionable "end state" set of military objectives.
I'm outside the military now. Maybe I see things differently. First, I know that the men and women in uniform can and will accomplish any mission that CAN be accomplished. However...
How do we kill ISIS? I submit that ISIS is an idea, implemented by men. You cannot kill an idea. We can kill the fighters, but how do we stop the "pipeline" of fighters? I challenge anyone out there to show me an example where military power ALONE stopped an idea from spreading. I will not go into the idea behind ISIS.
Many mention the "evil" nature of ISIS and its actions. I do not believe that Evil can be killed or destroyed by a military. I'm afraid that trying to destroy Evil is a bottomless grave. I'm not saying that we must look away because there's nothing we can do. Our military is capable of tremendous achievements. I'm saying that as a nation, we need to decide EXACTLY what we can do, then decide if we're WILLING to do that. In my worldview, we can "fight and suppress" Evil and push back The Darkness. As long as men walk the earth, Evil exists.
I want these vile, cowardly criminals stopped as much as anyone. I'm concerned that our rush to "do something" may result in throwing more Americans into a fight where they don't have an end-state (I.e., a realistic set of ROEs).
If it was my golf course, I'd go after the cowards giving speeches and professing to know the will of their god. Kill the people spreading the poison and MAYBE the more moderate voices will turn off the pipeline.
I have FULL and UNQUALIFIED confidence in the ability of the US military. I'm concerned that there's no actionable "end state" set of military objectives.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
I don't disagree with anything in your reply, SFC Michael Jackson, MBA. I know that the ISIS organization will have to be "degraded and destroyed"... I just would like to have a real plan in place for the "degraded" part before we send more men and women over there.
Thanks for your reply, sergeant.
Thanks for your reply, sergeant.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
My solution, build a McDonald's on every corner in the Middle East...let them eat themselves into a passive state....let McDonald's spread deocracy...half in jest, half serious.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
May I suggest a modification of your excellent plan, SSG(P) (Join to see)?
Krispy Kreme vice McD's? If you're looking for real change, how about donut-induced stupor and diabetes to boot?
Or we could utterly destroy their society with "Hooters"...
Krispy Kreme vice McD's? If you're looking for real change, how about donut-induced stupor and diabetes to boot?
Or we could utterly destroy their society with "Hooters"...
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