Posted on Sep 11, 2015
Mixed-gender teams come up short in Marines' infantry experiment. What do you think?
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All-male ground combat teams outperformed their mixed-gender counterparts in nearly every capacity during a recent infantry integration test, Marine Corps officials revealed Thursday.
Data collected during a monthslong experiment showed Marine teams with female members performed at lower overall levels, completed tasks more slowly and fired weapons with less accuracy than their all-male counterparts. In addition, female Marines sustained significantly higher injury rates and demonstrated lower levels of physical performance capacity overall, officials said.
The troubling findings come as Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Dunford prepares to make a crucial decision regarding the integration of female troops into closed combat roles. Faced with a Defense Department-wide mandate that will open all jobs to women by Jan. 1, he must decide whether to ask for specific exceptions to the mandate in order to preserve combat readiness. Officials said Dunford had met with Navy Secretary Ray Mabus about the decision but had yet to issue his recommendations.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/10/mixed-gender-teams-come-up-short-marines-infantry-experiment/71979146/
Long story but an interesting read. My take is two-fold. One, women simply don't have the experience that men do. That will (most likely) improve over time as women gain experience.
Two, women for the most part simply do not have the muscular strength and endurance that men do. That's basic physiology.
Data collected during a monthslong experiment showed Marine teams with female members performed at lower overall levels, completed tasks more slowly and fired weapons with less accuracy than their all-male counterparts. In addition, female Marines sustained significantly higher injury rates and demonstrated lower levels of physical performance capacity overall, officials said.
The troubling findings come as Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Dunford prepares to make a crucial decision regarding the integration of female troops into closed combat roles. Faced with a Defense Department-wide mandate that will open all jobs to women by Jan. 1, he must decide whether to ask for specific exceptions to the mandate in order to preserve combat readiness. Officials said Dunford had met with Navy Secretary Ray Mabus about the decision but had yet to issue his recommendations.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/09/10/mixed-gender-teams-come-up-short-marines-infantry-experiment/71979146/
Long story but an interesting read. My take is two-fold. One, women simply don't have the experience that men do. That will (most likely) improve over time as women gain experience.
Two, women for the most part simply do not have the muscular strength and endurance that men do. That's basic physiology.
Women in the Military
Marine Corps
Infantry
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 78
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She's back with more wisdom...
http://time.com/4032419/colonel-germano-low-expectations-limit-female-marines/
http://time.com/4032419/colonel-germano-low-expectations-limit-female-marines/
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Cpl Brad MarkW
Her point seems to be the USMC needs to have one standard, not one for each gender. As a result, women came in to the Corps with less ability, they graduated boot camp under a lesser standard and they train to a lower standard. Therefore it's the USMC's fault the women integrated units failed because they've always demanded less from their women. Interesting - so it's not that women can't do the job of an infantryman, it's that the USMC did not prepare them adequately by allowing them lower standards. Or am I missing something? I think if the USMC had one standard, the current male standard for physical fitness, there would be a lot less women in the USMC period. Granted the ones that did pass would be more apt to compete with their male counterparts, but the unintended consequence is that higher standard would simply cause more women to fail - and we can't have that, so we'd lower the overall standard. I don't think that's what anyone wants or the USMC needs at all.
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Everyone is posting something very similar to what I want to say. No matter how you try to spend it the average male will out perform the average female in physical activities. I did say average! They should've had an all female group included in these activities as well. However, regardless of the outcome, change is coming. Hopefully not to the detriment of lethality/readiness/combat effectiveness.
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I'm not picking on the Marines, but their really into this macho thing. Marines are tough, and expect a lot from their members. I don't think they'll give the women Marines a fair chance---I suspect the deck was stacked against them from the start. If they want it to be fair---have an all female unit compete against an all male unit. That would be an interesting.
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SSgt (Join to see)
First off the females were going to fail to start with, you need to first train the females to male standard of fitness. In the marines its not a macho thing its that we have the highest standards. but the real question is this. Why do females not train to the male standard in any branch of service? Should we lower our male standards like they have done in the Army or train the females first to meet the male standards. remember above all this is the military if you join you chose this life style and career path but it is on the person to meet the standards and go past them.
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As this study wraps up; and on my early post , I have seen this movie before and the end results are the same. they simply don't stack up when it comes to combat roles. God made us different for a reason. this is nothing new, they tried this same study before the Gulf War. I don't see my marines changing the rules anytime soon. all this study proves to everyone is that people need to stay in their lanes. semper fi
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No surprise there. One thing good to say about the Jarheads as they conduct such tests w/far higher integrity than the Army.
If the Army actually conducted the tests as per normal light infantry work and not short term/short distance COIN ops, the ruck mvmts alone would wash out the greater number of women. I had to chapter men who couldn't carry 60% or more of their body weight, I'd be interested to see women having to carry what would be 70% or more of theirs as an equivalency
If the Army actually conducted the tests as per normal light infantry work and not short term/short distance COIN ops, the ruck mvmts alone would wash out the greater number of women. I had to chapter men who couldn't carry 60% or more of their body weight, I'd be interested to see women having to carry what would be 70% or more of theirs as an equivalency
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Cpl Robert Crockett
I wonder how the social stuff gets resolved. I think of "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman. Basically the women soldiers get passed around the platoon for sex to avoid drama -- no favorites and no refusals. It would be quite a shock to the feminists if it were to come to pass.
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I remember a comment made by my French literature proffesor made when I was in Switzerland. He was an ex-member of the French paratroopers and a veteran of the Algerian war. He said "A woman can never be a man's equal. She can be his inferior or his superior but never equal."
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2 finally past Ranger course, but not too many GI Janes out there. They'd likely kick my old butt, yet none have jumped to the challenge, yet! Pulled 1 thru during training while the others blocked her partner a minute. Sorta train: A minute to kill, or die trying! , but she'd likely been snapped if reality:(
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Cant argue with the facts here. However I am curious since these new teams to include women haven't been working together as long as the all male teams. I wonder if through the turmoil if they will increase their performance. There are stages the teams go through before they are a well oiled machine. I am curious as they train together more if those short comings will shrink? At the end of the day there are only 2 things that will have they will either succeed or fail. I hope they succeed because there is no room for failure.
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I think every last man in any of these mixed units needs to be a volunteer -- and not the kind volunteered by higher-ups. If the women can truly cut it, as is the claim, there should be all-female infantry units...to prove the point.
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