Posted on May 29, 2015
Mohammad cartoon contest in front of a Phoenix Mosque. What are your thoughts?
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Culture
Islam
Freedom of Speech
Posted >1 y ago
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We allow people to walk on even deficate on the American flag for "art" and protests. We allow Christian artifacts and symbols to be used in the same way. Islam is upset over their prophet? Get over it welcome to the land of the free we do not bow to terrorists!! We do negotiate with them unfortunately
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MSG David Chappell
Can we prove all mosques are supporting terrorism? How many have been proven to be supporting? Many!! How many religious leaders scream for the death of others? Only Islam.
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MSG David Chappell
Why do we allow a religion to dictate our way of life? Why do we give up our beliefs just because they conflict with another group? Let's talk sharia law it is being practiced here in communities. Honor killings, death to gays, kill anyone who dissent believe. That's Islam.
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CPT Pedro Meza
David, You are generalizing, but lets talk about sharia law then, because it does exist in every state that has laws then restricts women's health choices, the same applies to restrictions on gay marriages, and still those that demand their religious rights to discriminate against gays and lesbians because they say their bible says so.
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SFC(P) Aaron Fore
No generalizations. The following are Sharia laws which are derived from the Quran.
1- Jihad, defined as "to war against non-Muslims to establish the religion," is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.
2- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.
3- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape.
4- A percentage of Zakat (charity money) must go towards jihad.
5- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.
6- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.
7- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph if he rejects Islam.
8- A Muslim who leaves Islam must be killed immediately.
9- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of: 1) an apostate 2) an adulterer 3) a highway robber. Vigilante street justice and honor killing is acceptable.
10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim, but will get it for killing a Muslim.
11- Sharia never abolished slavery, sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave.
12- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, amputation of limbs, flogging even for crimes of sin such as adultery.
13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims under the law. They must comply to Islamic law if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.
14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. But Muslims can curse non-Muslims.
15- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.
16- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.
17- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or bathhouse attendants. Women in low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.
18- A non-Muslim cannot rule -- even over a non-Muslim minority.
19- Homosexuality is punishable by death.
20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and can be consummated at age 8 or 9.
21- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband's obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.
22- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: "I divorce you" and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.
23- There is no community property between husband and wife and the husband's property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.
24- A woman inherits half what a man inherits.
25- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and none of them have a right to divorce him -- even if he is polygamous.
26- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman's sexual organs.
27- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.
28- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.
29- A woman loses custody if she remarries.
30- To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses.
31- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.
32- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body, which is considered "Awrah," a sexual organ. Not all Sharia schools allow the face of a woman exposed.
33- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife at the time he caught her in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women, since the man "could be married to the woman he was caught with."
34-It is obligatory for a Muslim to lie if the purpose is obligatory. That means that for the sake of abiding with Islam's commandments, such as jihad, a Muslim is obliged to lie and should not have any feelings of guilt or shame associated with this kind of lying.
1- Jihad, defined as "to war against non-Muslims to establish the religion," is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.
2- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.
3- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape.
4- A percentage of Zakat (charity money) must go towards jihad.
5- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.
6- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.
7- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph if he rejects Islam.
8- A Muslim who leaves Islam must be killed immediately.
9- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of: 1) an apostate 2) an adulterer 3) a highway robber. Vigilante street justice and honor killing is acceptable.
10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim, but will get it for killing a Muslim.
11- Sharia never abolished slavery, sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave.
12- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, amputation of limbs, flogging even for crimes of sin such as adultery.
13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims under the law. They must comply to Islamic law if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.
14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. But Muslims can curse non-Muslims.
15- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.
16- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.
17- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or bathhouse attendants. Women in low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.
18- A non-Muslim cannot rule -- even over a non-Muslim minority.
19- Homosexuality is punishable by death.
20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and can be consummated at age 8 or 9.
21- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband's obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.
22- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: "I divorce you" and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.
23- There is no community property between husband and wife and the husband's property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.
24- A woman inherits half what a man inherits.
25- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and none of them have a right to divorce him -- even if he is polygamous.
26- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman's sexual organs.
27- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.
28- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.
29- A woman loses custody if she remarries.
30- To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses.
31- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.
32- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body, which is considered "Awrah," a sexual organ. Not all Sharia schools allow the face of a woman exposed.
33- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife at the time he caught her in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women, since the man "could be married to the woman he was caught with."
34-It is obligatory for a Muslim to lie if the purpose is obligatory. That means that for the sake of abiding with Islam's commandments, such as jihad, a Muslim is obliged to lie and should not have any feelings of guilt or shame associated with this kind of lying.
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Why? To provoke a violent response from jihadist wannabees? Please none of this first amendment freedom of speech justification, this isn't protected speech. This proves nothing and simply endangers people.
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Suspended Profile
I agree that open carry is intimidating in today's culture, but I would not go so far as to say it's equivalent to a threat sir. There's no way of knowing that an armed person intends to use their weapon offensively, and given how many ppl carry it is reasonable to assume such a person will not use it in that manner.
Personally, I think if a person intended to use a sidearm offensively, it'd be more in their interest to keep it concealed until opportunity strikes. So for me, I'd expect a person open-carrying to behave less threateningly or be less of an actual threat than someone I know is carrying concealed. Of course, my emotions would be stimulated more by the sight of one's sidearm than they would otherwise, but it would not be reasonable for me to assume they're going to use it on me or someone else in an offensive manner. If one allows their emotions to supersede their reasoning, that can be no one's fault but their own, IMHO.
Personally, I think if a person intended to use a sidearm offensively, it'd be more in their interest to keep it concealed until opportunity strikes. So for me, I'd expect a person open-carrying to behave less threateningly or be less of an actual threat than someone I know is carrying concealed. Of course, my emotions would be stimulated more by the sight of one's sidearm than they would otherwise, but it would not be reasonable for me to assume they're going to use it on me or someone else in an offensive manner. If one allows their emotions to supersede their reasoning, that can be no one's fault but their own, IMHO.
Suspended Profile
MAJ Keira Brennan, I think assuming that non-violent provocation is reckless, requires assuming there's a good chance of the recipient behaving unreasonably/irrationally/out-of-proportion/etc. I agree that people often over-react and/or behave irrationally...however, one's propensity to react irrationally does not excuse them from their responsibility to behave rationally. The blame cannot rationally be shifted to the non-violent provoker, in my opinion.
We cannot maintain this culture that values victimhood and attempts to disown personal responsibility, I think it is unhealthy for the future of individual liberty.
We cannot maintain this culture that values victimhood and attempts to disown personal responsibility, I think it is unhealthy for the future of individual liberty.
MAJ Keira Brennan
I couldn't be more agreeable to that. I would say that coming armed (exercising that right) does nothing but raise the pucker factor. I do think that the event and invitation to come armed is about as reckless thing I've heard in in a long time. But when in Arizona.
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Suspended Profile
SPC Ei McS, it doesn't surprise me either, as people abandon reason all the time. But who besides the individual abandoning reason, can logically be held responsible for doing so?
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Evil exists because good men do nothing. If we allow fear to rule us we will eventually allow our enemies to dictate to us our own freedoms.
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Inflammatory, juvenile, provocative and unnecessary..but it is their right to do so. Where I draw the line is their "leader" telling his minions to bring weapons to the rally. I hope local police will keep the safety of everyone in mind.
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Suspended Profile
Individuals have the right to be a**holes, and no one has a right to not be offended. How an individual responds to provocation or other emotional stimulation is his/her responsibility and his/hers alone.
I was verbally bullied a lot as a kid/teen, but such relentless provocation did not mandate I react out of proportion, or violently; nor did it make me anyone's victim. I freely chose to dismiss the nonsense of my provokers, understanding that violence is irrational and unwarranted except when receiving it or a credible threat of it, as I choose to not be governed by my emotions (i.e. be a savage).
I was verbally bullied a lot as a kid/teen, but such relentless provocation did not mandate I react out of proportion, or violently; nor did it make me anyone's victim. I freely chose to dismiss the nonsense of my provokers, understanding that violence is irrational and unwarranted except when receiving it or a credible threat of it, as I choose to not be governed by my emotions (i.e. be a savage).
MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM
So you would tell a General Officer to go fk off? Shouldn't respect come into play at some point?
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Suspended Profile
MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM , I have entered into a contract, of my own free will, which gives a GO authority over me. Thus I have willingly taken on the obligation to respect GOs, and be subject to penalties for not doing so.
I'm not saying people shouldn't be respectful of others, but I'm not saying they should be either. My point is that exercising a right isn't a matter of "should" or "should not", it just is what it is.
I'm not saying people shouldn't be respectful of others, but I'm not saying they should be either. My point is that exercising a right isn't a matter of "should" or "should not", it just is what it is.
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I will say the same thing I said in the last thread about this. Just because you have the right to be royal jackass does not mean you put you should put aside your ethics, morals, or humanity to exercise that right. No matter if there is a terrorist strike or not should not be an issue. (hey good job you brought a gun to a bomb fight) think of the moral ripples that are being sent out through or nation right now. The public and now popular debasing of our flag being foremost in my mind (which was the only logical conclusion to children not having to treat the symbol of OUR nation with respect In public schools if not by there teachers then there parents when they found out). Put yourself in the shoes of the rest of the world. What does this televised disrespect of OUR OWN FLAG AND NOW THE COMPLETE DISRESPECT OF AN ENTIRE RELIGION THAT HAS JUST AS MANY DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS as Christianity what image does that portray to the world over? That Americans as a whole are petulant children who do not respect anything. That is the image we are portraying to the rest of the world.
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SSG (Join to see)
I don't believe that is an apple to apple comparison. First, 99.99% percent seem to have a solid grasp on the idea that free speech means your going to be offended sometimes and that violence is an unacceptable response. Unfortunately, if there are millions of Muslims in the country that .01% means there are a few hundred who believe a violent response is justified. Hopefully none decide to show up.
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Suspended Profile
I take a different perspective on the image this portrays to the world. Instead of looking like a nation of disrespectful a**holes, I think it shows the world that we have a bunch of disrespectful a**holes just like they do, and yet we don't start shooting each other over it.
People around the world are aware that they have d-bags in their populaces too, but also that their d-bags are more likely to start shooting each other than we are, over differences of worldviews.
People around the world are aware that they have d-bags in their populaces too, but also that their d-bags are more likely to start shooting each other than we are, over differences of worldviews.
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Sorry, this is CNN, so my initial reaction was GAG!
But after reading the story, Our 1st amendment and freedom of free speech is protected by the Constitution of the United States. We, as military personnel, PLEDGED to protect that.
But, having said that, I believe that this protest or gathering can be done in better taste. You know, like not RIGHT OUTSIDE the Mosque... Believe when I say I am not protecting the little radical bastards, I am just saying.
I can't be hypocritical. I DESPISE Westboro Baptist Church! DESPISE THEM! Spit on ever ONE of them. I hate it even more, they picketing our Heroes funeral, etc. They'll go straight to hell and yippie-ki-yay for that. BUT we have done a lot to squash those termites and make it to where they can not picket within so many feet.
I'm just saying that we can't be choosy. Yes to this No to that.
Saying all that, tho, I like the meaning of this protest.
We will NOT submit. We will NOT back down. We will NOT be silenced. We will NOT practice Political Correctness and We will KILL you if you attempt to take us out. Watch out! ;-)
But after reading the story, Our 1st amendment and freedom of free speech is protected by the Constitution of the United States. We, as military personnel, PLEDGED to protect that.
But, having said that, I believe that this protest or gathering can be done in better taste. You know, like not RIGHT OUTSIDE the Mosque... Believe when I say I am not protecting the little radical bastards, I am just saying.
I can't be hypocritical. I DESPISE Westboro Baptist Church! DESPISE THEM! Spit on ever ONE of them. I hate it even more, they picketing our Heroes funeral, etc. They'll go straight to hell and yippie-ki-yay for that. BUT we have done a lot to squash those termites and make it to where they can not picket within so many feet.
I'm just saying that we can't be choosy. Yes to this No to that.
Saying all that, tho, I like the meaning of this protest.
We will NOT submit. We will NOT back down. We will NOT be silenced. We will NOT practice Political Correctness and We will KILL you if you attempt to take us out. Watch out! ;-)
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
Written like a good little Socialist, LT. You are still a very young man. I can only hope you will come to see things more clearly when you are older. Taxation is robbery. A draft is kidnapping, even if you think it is "good for the country". Individual liberty does not yet seem to be one of your values, which is a pity. In fact, it terrifies me that you are entrusted to lead men with weapons, based on both your last post and that you support making dissent on ANY topic a crime.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
"Seriously, your arguments don't seem rational", LTC Blink Romanick, doesn't seem like kidding to me or sarcasm.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
Do I think people who deny the Holocaust have an agenda and are potentially dangerous, LT? Yes, I do. The problem with banning dissent is where do you stop? There is no more slippery slope I can think of. I don't know who "your people" are. Maybe that's the problem? From your presence on this website, I believed that "your people" are Americans? If that's not the case, maybe you should let me know. Capitalism is about free markets and individual choice, people taking risks with their own resources and succeeding or failing on the merit of their own abilities to meet consumer demand. Your expressed belief that that can include forced servitude for the greater good, regardless of whether that servitude is conscription (because it would be "good for society" or "good for the Romans" or "good for the Swiss"; I'm not sure the Swiss have conscription; maybe more like everyone is trained to defend their own homes and farms), or extortion through income tax because you don't like some people accumulating too much wealth. When you tax people's production, you make them de facto slaves to the state. Just as southern slave owners claimed ownership of their slaves' lives and production, you are claiming state ownership of people's lives and production by forcibly making them turn over a portion of their production to the state. Have you ever thought of that? This is NOT a Capitalist concept.
These are not mere "political differences" between you and me, they are fundamental philosophical ones. In a volunteer military, we agree to give up some of our rights temporarily, such as dissent and self-ownership, to (hopefully) defend others' rights to do these things. When we lose sight of this, we become, potentially, just a band of armed thugs.
These are not mere "political differences" between you and me, they are fundamental philosophical ones. In a volunteer military, we agree to give up some of our rights temporarily, such as dissent and self-ownership, to (hopefully) defend others' rights to do these things. When we lose sight of this, we become, potentially, just a band of armed thugs.
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I guess if you are going to poke a hornets nest you best be prepared for a response from the hornets. Freedom of speech does not always mean freedom of consequences. But I also have issues with any religious follower(s) that feel a need to kill others because they have differing beliefs. So I guess I am sitting on the fence with this one. While I disagree with the method or demonstration, I would not be heartbroke if any extremist learn a hard lesson about taking their religion too seriously. (like the two in Texas)
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Cpl Mark McMiller
I don't think they're too worried about any response from the hornets in Arizona. Unlike New York and other gun grabber states, most of the people in Arizona probably have any would-be terrorists outgunned.
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SFC Robert Wheeler
I hope you are just as not pleased with the radical Christians that support murdering abortion providers.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SFC Robert Wheeler That is why I said "any religious follower" I guess I should have capitalized the ANY.
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While I dont agree with it 100%... I have to ask...what about all the inflammatory mocking of Christ, Christians, and Jews take place on a daily basis...in media, TV shows, and by other religions...Are we to avoid this kind of mockery with Islam?... Or are we to refrain because they react with Violence...what is the real problem here?...I would argue the Islamic response to such mockery is the problem...
People murder Christians, Stage rallies outside of churches, mock Christdaily... SouthPark, Dave Chapelle, in fact just about everything on comedy Central...
People murder Christians, Stage rallies outside of churches, mock Christdaily... SouthPark, Dave Chapelle, in fact just about everything on comedy Central...
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SFC Robert Wheeler
Sgt Cowan, would you like to present some evidence of people here in this country burning the Bible, or accusing Christians of genocide, murder, and other grievous acts? Sure some people in the name of Christianity have killed abortion providers. Is that representative of all Christians? This is not mockery that this asshole is doing. Did you even read the article? This idiot does not make any distinctions between good and bad Muslims. He paints them all with the same broad brush. I suggest you rethink your stance.
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1LT Jonathan Cowan
I did read it and regardless of the reasoning it is the response and the action that is taking place...
In an age of "NO GO ZONES" in europe and now in some parts of America do to Sharia law and muslims we have become totally numb to the fact that Christians become offended and fear as well. nowhere does this man say kill people, nowhere does he say destroy all muslims. I can show you 100s of articles of people calling Christians crazy...Christians losing businesses because of their beliefs, and Christians being ridiculed for one reason or another... this is a protest... a Rally...
And in response to your evidence question I can gladly pull hundred of bible burning videos and articles if you like...but instead I will rebut... We hear daily about the horrors of the Crusades (which pale in comparison to Caliphates 1-4, and the Push for Islam across the middle east and into Europe over the past 1000 years. And people do not make distinction between Christians either when lumping Catholics, protestants, Pentecostals, snake handlers and baptists all into one... Your statement is the epitome of hypocrisy... I suggest you find a stance...one that makes sense...
In an age of "NO GO ZONES" in europe and now in some parts of America do to Sharia law and muslims we have become totally numb to the fact that Christians become offended and fear as well. nowhere does this man say kill people, nowhere does he say destroy all muslims. I can show you 100s of articles of people calling Christians crazy...Christians losing businesses because of their beliefs, and Christians being ridiculed for one reason or another... this is a protest... a Rally...
And in response to your evidence question I can gladly pull hundred of bible burning videos and articles if you like...but instead I will rebut... We hear daily about the horrors of the Crusades (which pale in comparison to Caliphates 1-4, and the Push for Islam across the middle east and into Europe over the past 1000 years. And people do not make distinction between Christians either when lumping Catholics, protestants, Pentecostals, snake handlers and baptists all into one... Your statement is the epitome of hypocrisy... I suggest you find a stance...one that makes sense...
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1LT Jonathan Cowan
And Also I will Re-iterate....I do not AGREE 100% with this mans actions or the actions of the people....I just dont see it as being any different than Rallys and mass prayers taking place in other countries and parts of ours... If someone is shot, killed, injured I would condemn it...but this is a rally... and a legal one at that...
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SSG (Join to see)
If your intentionally creating "art" to offend religious people then what your doing is wrong... it is most likely perfectly legal, however just because something is legal doesn't make it right. We should condemn "art" that is intentionally provocative and offensive to Christians (Cross in a jar of urine, pictures of Jesus having sex with men, ect) as well "art" that is provocative to other religions. If this was some guy drawing pictures of Mohamed in a newsletter, that's one thing... this is something entirely different.
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It is interesting that Siddiqi of the Council on American-Islamic Relations says that this is because of the "intersection of Islamaphobia and (the) gun culture."
When I was in Iraq, everybody had guns, it was their culture, and they are now definitely showing Chrsitianphobia.
I say do not back down on Freedom of Speech and the right to assembly. The only issue the followers of Islam have to worry about is if the demonstrators are attacked.
This is the United States of America and we should not bow down to any that do not support OUR way of life in OUR own Country.
You have the right to be offended.
When I was in Iraq, everybody had guns, it was their culture, and they are now definitely showing Chrsitianphobia.
I say do not back down on Freedom of Speech and the right to assembly. The only issue the followers of Islam have to worry about is if the demonstrators are attacked.
This is the United States of America and we should not bow down to any that do not support OUR way of life in OUR own Country.
You have the right to be offended.
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SSG (Join to see)
Despite the fact that most of our extremists identify as Christian, they have somehow managed to avoid referring to those hundreds of armed protesters gathering in from of their Mosque, who are attempting to provoke a violent response as Christian extremists. I could agree that they are expressing a little armed rightwing nutjobophobia, however they are not conflating that with Christianity. Good for them.
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SSG (Join to see)
@SFC James S. I believe your talking about the people doing the protesting.
First they are the victim of people who call their actions offensive (even though they support their right to be offensive). Second by attempting to provoke a violent response they hope to convince people that their view of Islam is the correct one. Third, if they get what they want in the form of a violent response they will have successfully managed to harm the religious liberty of Americans and the willingness of state and local government to tolerate provocative speech. You appear to be spot on.
First they are the victim of people who call their actions offensive (even though they support their right to be offensive). Second by attempting to provoke a violent response they hope to convince people that their view of Islam is the correct one. Third, if they get what they want in the form of a violent response they will have successfully managed to harm the religious liberty of Americans and the willingness of state and local government to tolerate provocative speech. You appear to be spot on.
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