Posted on Sep 24, 2020
My chain of command just announced that they're going to inspect on and off-post housing. What are they allow to inspect?
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So my question is can they order me open up my kid's room if my son and daughter are in their rooms, or if my dogs are in one of the rooms behind a closed door because of not being friendly to strangers can they order me to open. I apologize for such a naive question, I just have never experienced this before. Is there anything I can reference about off post house inspection by the chain of command.
Chain of Command
Housing
Inspections
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 197
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Yes, The bill of rights. Some ppl think that just because they are in the military, every inch of their lives is open for the chain of command. If it's on post, then yes. Off post, definitely NOT. If you are looking for case law, go to the on-post library and look up military case law that refers to off post housing inspections.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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This isn’t a naive question when in reality is a great question. The truth is simple anyone with in your chain of command isn’t allow to enter your housing without your Permission. If you refused to allow them yes they can ask housing authority to schedule One and they both can walk through. See housing since they have updated their policy for housing, they shut provide you with a book with the do & don’t ok. Airborne!!
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CSM Colin Patterson
They cannot ask the private contractor to enter your home. You can sue that contractor for allowing your chain of command into your home. The only person can enter your privately contracted home on a base or off based housing is CID and Military police with a search warrant.
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They may take a peek or they may tell you not to worry. They are not trying to disrupt you. They are looking to make sure that you and your family are living good quarters. Civilians who want to work with the Government and rent their properties to military personnel have rules and regulations to follow to make sure your living in a good set of quarters.
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Suspended Profile
No longer on active duty...but having commanded two companies, I would never have considered "inspecting" my Soldiers residences, less barracks inspections OR mobile home park trailers which had a history of fires, etc. If I lived off-post - no way I would ever allow anyone to "inspect" my home, which my wife kept in a meticulous manner.
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When I lived on post, we were told up front that our quarters could be inspected by our CoC if there was complaints about living conditions. That was the case for any government owned housing. Section 8 housing falls under those same guidelines. Off post housing is different. Some installations have contracts with private landlords who rent to military. In the rental contract it is agreed that your CoC or military housing could inspect your house with proper notice. If you own the house you live in, then you don’t have to let anyone in without a court order. I know some commands who visit their soldiers residence to see if the spouses and dependents are in need of anything or to address concerns over a long deployment that the soldier is about to go on.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
Whomever told you it applied to Section 8 housing either lied to you of is clueless. Folks usingSection 8 have the same rights as anyone else
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SFC David Pope, MBA
1stSgt Nelson Kerr - My brother owned a house that was rented under section 8. The case worker for the family that stayed there would schedule inspections to insure there were no extra people living in the house including the woman's boyfriend. When they enroll in Section 8 they agree to those terms. All the information was lined out in the contracts that they gave my brother. I read those documents before my brother agreed to them as a landlord. It also outlined items he was responsible for as the landlord. It wasn't a matter of someone telling me this, it was a matter of me reading the section 8 housing rules from the government. Section 8 housing rent is offset by the government, and the government sets the rates that will be paid to the homeowners.
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SFC David Pope, MBA
1stSgt Nelson Kerr - Section 8 is a government program. I was only using it as an example of government housing. Military personnel are not eligible for Section 8 housing when I was in the military. I don't know what the requirements are now. In 1988-1992 when I was in the 25th ID, if you lived on post, you were subject to inspection by your command or post housing. That has changed since then, but it was very real back then.
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They can not come to your off-post housing. if they do they can only and only see from the living room period. I will try and find the regulation, I used to live off base too while in active and no way was I going to allow them to come in but, you are supposed to but no further than the living room and what they can eye from there only. IF your spouse says they got to go then "THEY GOT TO GO!!!". now the coc can threaten you with "well we can put you in a barracks room if you wanna play that game". they have no business in your home unless they have pause to, due to complaints or other reasons, but if they are doing it for s and giggles then make sure you get the regs. EITHER WAY, THEY WILL PULL RANK AND THEY WILL MAKE SURE TO LET YOU KNOW WHO HAS THE RANK AND WHO DOESN'T. I had nothing to hide, at the same time if you have a blue falcon that is making life miserable and causing all this then your coc needs to hemm him up and not blanket punish like they love to do.
living room only but if your place is a mess then your butt is going back to the barracks.
living room only but if your place is a mess then your butt is going back to the barracks.
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Big deal1 I have always obeyed lawful orders. It is designed that soldiers don't always relate to problems at their place of residence. Bad landlords, unfit living conditions, etc
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They are just making sure everything is ok with you and your family living situation. There is some funny business going on with the landlords who are managing these apartment complexes. If you don't have anything to hide then there shouldn't be an issue.
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Inspecting off-post housing might be seen as an infringement on the Constitution guaranteeing our rights to be free from unreasonable search, or searches without judicial consent. Seems to me this invasion of what is categorized by the courts as falling under the castle doctrine definition might be the actions of an overzealous command structure. I personally wouldn't go down this path without a civil judge buying in based on evidence of some demonstrated wrongdoing by the military family member, not a suspicion
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CSM Colin Patterson
Military has no authority off base they cannot inspect on post contract housing. Therefore off post housing would be totally off limits.
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Okay, here we go. On post housing at Ft. Dix in the early 1980's. I'm home on a weekday, just having come off CQ. There comes a knock at my front door, and there stands CSM James Ligon, post CSM. He knocked on my door because there was a weed in the flower bed out front. A friggin weed. Tells me to get out here, and square it away. I went out and pulled the offending weed. Then he said he wanted to see the interior of my quarters. My immediate response was "No Sergeant Major, you can't come in." He wasn't happy, but he left. Turns out the on-post housing in that area was swarming with cockroaches. The housing office sent in exterminators once a month, and we had to sweep up HUNDREDS of those dead vermin.
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Its about time not only did I serve my country I served above and beyond the call of duty as an Infantry Paratrooper as well as volunteering for combat duty in Korea during peacetime. i never expected nor did I ask for anything in return for my service. However, the deplorable conditions in which I lived off base of Ft. Campbell returning stateside made my new wife cry and i was never embarrassed so much as a soldier. It is for the safety of your family not an invasion of privacy. After 40 years of receiving a metaphorical nut shot to the heart for serving; thank you's, handshakes, and hugs are not sincere or thoughtful. They are trying to help you. Man up for the sake of your family you owe it to them. Whether you served as an officer, a REMF, or a leg it is a team effort and we're all in this together. I am begging of you please do right by your family it is the honorable thing to do. Sincerely thank you for serving.
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Suspended Profile
Ok. As a former civilian city HUD Housing Inspector that Federal, state and municipal codes, specifically Title 45, minimum housing standards are met in all dwellings. That was my job along with prosecuting, ( fines and denial or revocation of their Occupancy Certificate ). It is a courtesy to allow military officials to do those inspections. Especially rentals for the obvious reasons. I hope this helped the argument some.
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I find it to be discrimination that on base members are subject to housing inspections, but by simple virtue of being granted off-base housing or by being married that you are exempt from inspections.
In my opinion, if the military is holding any member to an inspection standard then that standard should apply equally to ALL members regardless of their marital status.
In my opinion, if the military is holding any member to an inspection standard then that standard should apply equally to ALL members regardless of their marital status.
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this begs for lots of questions. Why is this happening? welfare or theft,or harm to civilians?? I would ask questions and understand why this is happening, instead of getting defensive and making knee jerk reactions
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SGT Tim Tobin
1stSgt Nelson Kerr totally agree. Unless the command is trying to keep something from the civilians that may look poorly on the post. We all have had experiences with "townies" that didn't like the military presence so trying to prevent an incident would be a reason to keep in on the qt. Not the best solution but a little more benevolent
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
SGT Tim Tobin hard to think of a case where doing that would not be obstruction of justice off-post and can not see at all where it would not violate both the Constition and the UCMJ
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SGT Tim Tobin
1stSgt Nelson Kerr I can't disagree on any point my only thought pattern is to talk to command and find out what is behind this and then make a battle plan!!
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Okay. I conducted inspections of all my soldiers including those who lived off post as well as on. The inspection is a health and welfare. You determine if the soldier is living in unsatisfactory living conditions. Has basic needs met. You would be surprised with things you will find. I could not and would not wonder around someone’s house. It’s not a white glove inspection either. Just making sure my soldier was living in livable conditions. I could not force my way in. That’s breaking and entering so if my soldier told me i could not go in, I didn’t go in. Nor could i order him because military authority does not cover living quarters unless your in the barracks. Nor did i knock on the door. That can be viewed as assault. I have run into soldiers who their spouse had a legal medical marijuana card. Lived off post. The soldier could not face any legal issues unless he decided to participate. House smelled. I have found soldiers who did not have food because they were out of money. Most posts have a food bank or we passed the hat then i got to go shopping and reinserted after payday to make sure they had food. These inspection allow your chain of concern to identify problems and fix them before they cause more dire issues. Invite your chain of concern to come over for a lunch or dinner. I did steaks for them and their families. Shows i have food and living in decent living conditions. The relaxed atmosphere helped everyone so if there was any questions everyone felt comfortable asking and answering.
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SGT Keith Smith
MAJ Steve Warnerski - first of all this is not a chain of command thing it’s a chain of concern issue. Second this is NCO business and my conduct is governed by the NCO creed. Unless I find an issue that can not be resolved at my level, you would never know but it is part of the job of a sergeant to know his soldiers and from experience I can tell you it has solved issues before they became a disciplinary issue.I will preform my duties so you do not have to.
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SGT Keith Smith
CSM Colin Patterson - There is nothing in that I do not understand and know. Depending on the state if you witness a crime and do not report it then you are guilty of a crime as well. Strange how this has morphed into catching them doing something that is wrong and not just checking up on your soldiers. I once checked up on one of my soldiers and smelled pot. Found out his wife had a medical card. I would never had known unless I had went there and looked and smelled. Yes you could smell it on his uniform at times and I was then able to tell my chain of command why he smelled like that. I would never had known if I had never went and saw him.
What you said above is also why you do not knock. Doing so can be viewed as assault.
What you said above is also why you do not knock. Doing so can be viewed as assault.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
SGT Keith Smith - Soo you can violate the law and the Constitution to follow the Soldiers creed?
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SGT Keith Smith
1stSgt Nelson Kerr - I am not violating and laws. To my knowledge there is no law that prohibits ringing a doorbell. If there is then I need to post it next to the No solicitation sign. Forcing your way is still illegal so as in most things no means no. As far as constitutional rights go well we kinda gave up some of those when we agreed to the contract. Freedom of speech being the first that comes to mind.
Why do I get the feeling that you want to catch someone committing some kind of crime. If that’s what your attempting just get a video or a recording of it. Several states have what’s called a one person rule. The army can not use it but the DA can. Even if it is done without the other person’s knowledge. Then ,after law enforcement does whatever they do, you can see if the soldier in question has what is called a serious incident. A missed formation or not showing up after 24 hours. AWOL then comes into play. Then you just chapter the soldier. All nice and tidy.
What I am doing is not trying to catch anyone but to make sure the soldier and his family are having basic needs met. Things like running water, electricity, food, and not living in a situation that puts the soldier at risk. If an issue is found then working with the family to make sure those needs get met.
However if you suspect a crime is being committed then call the police. I know in Oklahoma the police will just go arrest them on probable cause. They do not have to charge the soldier for anything but most likely the soldier will still be chaptered for going AWOL.
So to recap. Set up a time. Be polite and conduct yourself in a professional way. No means no. Identify any issues and take care of them at the lowest level. NCO business.
Why do I get the feeling that you want to catch someone committing some kind of crime. If that’s what your attempting just get a video or a recording of it. Several states have what’s called a one person rule. The army can not use it but the DA can. Even if it is done without the other person’s knowledge. Then ,after law enforcement does whatever they do, you can see if the soldier in question has what is called a serious incident. A missed formation or not showing up after 24 hours. AWOL then comes into play. Then you just chapter the soldier. All nice and tidy.
What I am doing is not trying to catch anyone but to make sure the soldier and his family are having basic needs met. Things like running water, electricity, food, and not living in a situation that puts the soldier at risk. If an issue is found then working with the family to make sure those needs get met.
However if you suspect a crime is being committed then call the police. I know in Oklahoma the police will just go arrest them on probable cause. They do not have to charge the soldier for anything but most likely the soldier will still be chaptered for going AWOL.
So to recap. Set up a time. Be polite and conduct yourself in a professional way. No means no. Identify any issues and take care of them at the lowest level. NCO business.
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This action reminds me of the fire arm issues.First automatic weapons.Then expansion from there.This could easily turn from an inspection to a search. I don't buy the fact that we have that many servicemen ,living in landlord squalor ,that the military needs to do canvassing of our soldiers off base quarters.Even with permission.Next thing you will hear is "I was just in the neighborhood and ".Obviously,with out a war,the military has too much time on it's hands.
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If you are not breaking any rules or regulations; you have nothin to worry about!
Stop whining.
Stop whining.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." If someone want to unlawfully violate your rights the proper answer is no.
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They will only be concerned with the kitchen and bathrooms. Preventive Medicine does the normal inspections. It's just a normal health and welfare inspection. This one just sounds like they want to make sure everyone is living in good quarters rather they be on post or off. Yes, they can do that. They also check through out your neighborhood on a monthly schedule and take water samples to make sure your water is good to drink. They will not open your closets and drawers. I'd put your dogs in the yard during the inspection. I've lived in both on post and off post. If the off post quarters are on the government list yes they can check it out.
But, I've been out since 1997 and I don't know if things have changed. I doubt that. Preventive Medicine is like the Health Dept. of the Military and they do everything.
Sgt. M. Aperans
Veteran (U.S. Army)
But, I've been out since 1997 and I don't know if things have changed. I doubt that. Preventive Medicine is like the Health Dept. of the Military and they do everything.
Sgt. M. Aperans
Veteran (U.S. Army)
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