Posted on Dec 3, 2014
CMDCM Gene Treants
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Some of the first women serving on submarines have been filmed while in the dressing area and showering over the past year. The Navy is still investigating the case and not many details have been released. The incident took place on USS Wyoming (Gold Crew).

So far the perpetrator has only been identified as a second class petty officer (E-5) who works at the Trident Refit Facility at Kings Bay, GA.

There were at least three female officer victims. More details below in the Navy Times article.
Posted in these groups: Images 1 Sexual HarassmentFf98e4cc Submarines
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PO1 Autumn Sandeen
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In I believe was 1998, a similar thing happened on my then ship, the USS Coronado (AGF-11). No cameras were involved, but four sailors ended up being found guilty at Captain's Mast of peeping at female junior officers while they showered. One turned "state's evidence," and he was the only one who wasn't admin discharged of the four.

I was the one who learned the peeping was happening and reported it to the chain of command. I first told my division officer, and then we together had a meeting with the ship's Sr Chief Master At Arms.

My division officer was one of the ones who the four enlisted sailors were peeping at. Talking to her about what was then still happening and how I knew she was one of the ones who was being peeped at, and then having a meeting with her at the Sr Chief...seeing the look on my DivO's face was heart wrenching.

I saw the hell of what this kind of horrid behavior does to good officers who happen to be female. What made it worse for me is that I had another Sr Chief from the mess come up to me after the mast for the four peepers and told me I handled it wrong. He told me that I should have taken it to the chiefs' mess and let them handle it at their level.

The book is going to be thrown at the filmers in this latest peeping situation, and my guess is they're going to be spending years in the brig. I'm with those who believe everyone who saw the videos and didn't report it need to be discharged or separated as close to now as possible with less than honorable discharges. My god, those women these "sailors" filmed are daughters, sisters, and spouses of people who love them. It says something about these service members who watched and didn't report these films not being able to say to themselves "What if this unsuspecting officer i watched on film showering were my sister, mother, or wife?"

That so many knew and did nothing should be surprising -- given the core values of honor, courage, and commitment -- but to me it's not surprising at all. Somehow still in 2014 we have sailors who don't see a problem in engaging in sexual harassment is both sad and infuriating.
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PO1 Autumn Sandeen
PO1 Autumn Sandeen
11 y
LCDR Doug Nordman, I didn't mention it in my story, but the MACS in it was female. No doubt this senior enlisted made a difference -- I'm betting my DIVO, who at that point was an Ensign, benefited from having the law enforcement SCPO be a female.

Yeah, female senior enlisted onboard Navy subs -- ASAP -- would no doubt be optimal.
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PO1 Autumn Sandeen
PO1 Autumn Sandeen
11 y
PV2 Abbott Shaull, I know on FFGs it was about berthing. Female officers could be accommodated because their spaces were staterooms, but not CPOs and more junior enlisted because of the berthing compartments' design.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
I never really understood the rational behind putting a few JO's on a boat and not having Chiefs and other Enlisted personnel aboard. Yes berthing might have been a little harder, BUT we are Sailors and could have worked it out. I believe Senior Enlisted leadership could have made a difference in integration than just a token Officer presence. Good point LCDR Doug Nordman.

We had talked about it on Anzio and worked out a possible way to make it happen. Surely it would not be that difficult n either a Boomer or a Fast Attack.
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LCDR Doug Nordman
LCDR Doug Nordman
11 y
PV2, it's completely different in the submarine force. I received most of my nuclear classroom training from O-3s, but my shore-based reactor plant training was from E-5s and E-6s. On the boat, most of my engineering training came from E-5s and E-6s. If you got all of your shipboard training from other officers, then you never earned the credibility or the crew's respect.

SSBNs and SSGNs have nine-rack compartments that could have berthed senior enlisted women back in 2010, in addition to the stateroom that has three women officers. The women nukes could have come to the boat from aircraft carriers, and the women in other ratings could have come over from surface or aviation. The CO and the officers may run the boat, but the chief petty officers make the boat run. I think it's essential to do both. I wish they'd done both at the same time. Right now, the two nuclear junior officers on each crew have to depend on a Supply Corps O-3 for their role model.

My spouse and I were USNA midshipmen in 1978-1983, a few years after women were admitted to the service academies. Back then they put 2-3 women in every company so that everyone worked alongside women, but it became a big problem when midshipmen dropped out during freshman/sophomore years. A few years later (as more women applied and were admitted) USNA put 10-12 women in every second or third company and kept rotating that through until every company built up a group of women in at least one class year. It's taken 25 years for USNA's women demographic to reach 20%, which sociologists recognize as a critical number in accepting a minority as "normal".

I don't know how long it's taken the surface Navy to accept women into the crew, but I suspect that it happened a lot faster than the aviation community. I hope the submarine force can learn a little faster from these other examples.
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
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Edited 11 y ago
This frankly really bothers me as my daughter is in the USNA and going to be a SWO. I will not go further into details but the Navy has serious respect for others issues.
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LT Surface Warfare Officer
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11 y
CW5 Sam R. Baker as a SWO and an instructor at USNA, universal respect is one of the items I discuss early and frequently in my class (Introduction to Naval Science) and when I mentor the midshipmen in my Company (10th Company SWO Mentor). The surface community is just now overcoming the "eating their young" atmosphere with the leadership of a few Flag Officers I've been extremely privileged to work for before they were flags (VADM Copeman (Ret) and VADM Rowden) and is continuously making strides WRT this subject.
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
CW5 Sam R. Baker
11 y
Gents, appreciate the support and yes all services have issues, I merely am personally affected to some recent events.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
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BTW CW5 Sam R. Baker as next weekend approaches and seeing how your daughter is in the Academy I will have to speak for her when I say, "Daddy see ABOVE!"
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
CW5 Sam R. Baker
11 y
Image
HOOAH
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TSgt Scott Hurley
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This was bound to happen. I think that this one incident should not deter women from serving on Subs and should be a wake up call to bring back keel hauling, shooting from the torpedo tube anyone that violates the sacred trust on board these boats if caught.

On a serious note. Anyone caught doing this needs to be demoted and discharged for conduct unbecoming of an *insert rank ident here*.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
Like the tubes idea!
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TSgt Scott Hurley
TSgt Scott Hurley
11 y
CMDCM Gene Treants I was trying to find a funny video clip of a Sergent getting a lecture by the Exutive officer of a fictional sub, and being told that he would fire him out of a torpedo tube with a 4 kiloton device attached if anything happened to the Capt. Who just happened to be female. I just wanted that clip. But I can't find separate from comps or from the episode itself.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
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Here is an update to the original post. One Sailor a Second Class Petty Officer (E-5) appears to have done the videotaping. Eleven other Petty Officers viewed the videos and did not report it to the Chain of Command. NCIS is still investigating and final disposition will not happen until that investigation is complete. The Navy Times Article is attached. Is it possible more Sailors were involved?
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CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
PV2 Abbott Shaull there are so many factors that affect age when you make E-5 in Navy, just like army, that I could not begin to venture a guess. I was 19 when I joined and made 2nd Class at 22 and 1st Class at 26, but I have know in the 60's an E-4 with 18 years in so, what can I say - average, well same as Army I would guess.

Did I expect this many. Oh yes, at least and this is just the tip of the ice berg IMHO, but we may never see more.
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PV2 Abbott Shaull
PV2 Abbott Shaull
11 y
Yes I agree we may never see more. It always hard to tell if the investigation is shut down internally, or those who are found refuse to give up others. Either way, the ones they have found, and are should be punished to the fullest extent of the Military Justice. To send a clear message to anyone else who have a notion of doing this in the future, and to those who manage to get away, that this type of behavior is not to be tolerated, and it is not acceptable.
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PV2 Abbott Shaull
PV2 Abbott Shaull
11 y
I think in the Army we didn't have life long E-4s until after Vietnam War. They had Specialist-5 to Specialist-8 ranks until after that war. They got the same pay in the Grade, but didn't have the same responsibilities. Much like the current set up with Specialist-4 and Corporal at E-4. One of the major issues with current set-up is you have move-up or get out. It would open the field of promotions to lot of MOS, and allow people to advance in rank, until they get to position where they can earn their stripes.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
11 y
We had them. I had a cook in 1965 that we had to monitor carefully. He would get drunk every weekend on pass and do something. So he yo-yoed between PFC and SP4. As 20 and retirement approached we had to watch him like a hawk to keep him on the straight and narrow, so he could retire an E-4. He did!!!
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CPO P Derrick
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No one deserves to have thier privacy violated, but truly what privacy is there on a sub. If a woman wants to serve along side the men on a sub, suck it up and be one one of the guys, there is no room for you to have private space because there is no extra space! This is not a floating city, you want to be a nuc, great, do it above water on a carrier, which by the way has it's own is issues with inappropriate conduct. I don't know, just the opinion of a nuc electricians wife of 23 yrs. Proud of my husband, proud of of my submarine family! Extremely sad to see women on board.....
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CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
CPO P Derrick I am confused by your answer Chief. Are you the Chief who is an electrician as well as the wife of one? I agree that all ships, and not just subs need to be gender neutral someday, but our society is not ready for that today. As a Command Master Chief I have had more than a few wives worried about their husbands having affairs with female Sailors, but it is refreshing to find on who advocates all Sailors actually living and working together. As a man in a country with a declining MALE population, I am very happy to see more women taking on the role of Sailors, Soldiers, Airmen, and Marines, notjust in support roles, but in Combat Arms.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
11 y
Privacy in the officers' shower is not unreasonable. Have not been on the newer boats, but in a fleet boat, it is barely big enough for one person. Once you're in there, it is a reasonable expectation that no one will see you naked.
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PO3 Keith Farris
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I don't see how labeling young offenders like this for the rest of their lives is really fair. Everyone makes mistakes, but that's not saying they should get off either. Also, if you put men and women together over an extended period of time, something is bound to happen. It's just natural there are bound to be something somewhere that is not ok. Personally, I don't think there should be men and women mixed on closed commands. To close, to long. But what do I know?
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CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
PO3 Keith Farris before I comment on the perpetrator of the sexaual harassment or assault, let me comment on the victims of this crime. These young officers spent 4 years in college (or the Academy) and became Officers in the U.S.Navy. Then they trained in Submarines and possibly in Naval Nuclear Power also. We are now looking at women who are in their mid 20s. They were videoed while undressing and/or showering while they expected privacy and the respect of their SHIPMATES. They did not get that respect and their videos were passed around and may even have been posted to the internet. They are the victims here and will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

The 2nd Class Petty Officer who is accused for being responsible for filming them (the investigation is still in progress) may also be about the same age, but he knew what he was doing when he violated their privacy. I don't know why he decided to do this, but it was done. Right now there is not enough know to determine what has happened, but once the investigation is complete, I am sure that the punishment will fit.

Personal feelings aside, Navy has issued orders and all Officers and Petty Officers have an obligation to obey (as well as non-rated). Men and women have served on ships for many years and Navy has experienced growing pains just like the outer services. It is time for all to be professionals and not pull this shit.
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Maj Dale T. Armstrong
Maj Dale T. Armstrong
11 y
Can't have it! And I'm not one of these new, politically correct, liberal, progressive whatevers! I'm old fashioned, and been out for 20 years already. Still. Can't. Have. It. The fact that this PO went to the trouble to secretly record the ladies while showering, shows that he knew it was wrong, and it was premeditated, besides, c'mon, any freaking idiot knows this is wrong. What if it was your daughters/wife, he did that to? No discussion, he's an idiot, and he needs fried, and booted out. This is a clear cut case.
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PO2 Missile Technician
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An E-5 from TRF? Did he recently transfer to TRF? I cant understand how a guy from TRF was on the boat with the ability to video tape them in the shower especially for a year. He wouldn't have much of a reason to be there other than during the work day when these people would be preoccupied with production. Unless it was a Missile Tech who found himself a little hole in the walls behind the wine cellar straight into the Stateroom Showers ;) Im gonna guess an MT2 who recently transferred to TRF is the culprit. Maybe an MTSN or MT3 now.
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LCDR Doug Nordman
LCDR Doug Nordman
11 y
I don't know the details of this situation, but my impression of the press reports is that he was a WYOMING GOLD crewmember who was transferred up to TRF to get him off the boat.

He's also probably spending a lot time with investigators and legal officers, so it's more convenient to have him readily available at TRF rather than on sea duty.

I'm not saying that anyone had to fear for this sailor's personal safety. He's accused of a crime, there appears to be probable cause, and the command is separating him from the victims of the crime. Ideally the command would do the same with the other crewmembers who saw the videos but didn't report the crime.
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SA Harold Hansmann
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Anyone hear the scuttlebutt about what actually did happen with this case?
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Everyone who is found to be responsible, or even knew of this and failed to report it, should be put under the brig. There is no excuse for this, especially coming from a Petty Officer. I remember reading the Petty Officer's Creed some time ago and I think I remember reading something along the context of, "my integrity must be beyond reproach."

What a disgrace. I hope his sailors look to this as what Not to do.
CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
SFC Clayton Clute if they knew and did not report, they ARE accessories. I used to teach the Military Leadership Course to all new Petty Officers AND to each Chief Selectee.

The Petty Officer's Creed reads as follows:

The Navy Petty Officer's Creed

I am a Petty Officer in the United States Navy, the strongest Navy in the world. I have the distinct privilege of being a leader of the finest Sailors anywhere. As such, I owe my Sailors leadership that they can depend on, trust, and follow.

I will neither fear nor shun responsibility and I am always responsible for my actions. I am always fair and impartial when dealing with my Sailors; remembering not to accept full credit for a "A Job Well Done" without proper recognition of my Sailors first.

I am loyal to my subordinates, peers, and those officers appointed over me. I cannot favor either; my integrity must be beyond reproach.

I will fully support all Navy Regulations and Articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I have the duty to correct and report all violations of these regulations that govern my Navy.

I instill Esprit de Corps throughout the Petty Officer grades in the Navy; bearing allegiance to each other.

I owe all of the above not to just myself, but to the United States, to my Navy, and to the Sailors who work for me."

Somewhere along the way this E-5 forgot he was a Petty Officer and not just a PAYGRADE.
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SPC John Decker
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It should be investigated as any other incident of sexual harassment would be. I understand that the entire sexual harassment investigation/prosecution process is broken and needs to be fixed. Make the process faster and more open. In line with the Question and one of the comments about Bill Cosby, the E-5 in question should be removed as his image is not what the Navy is looking for. (He says with heavy sarcasm)
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CMDCM Gene Treants
CMDCM Gene Treants
11 y
I hate it when sarcasm get on my clothing - but totally agree. Yes we need to get this creep out of the Navy.
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