Posted on Mar 15, 2021
NCO typing multiple NCOs NCOERs because the unit failed to follow the rating scheme they had, is this valid to do so?
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My current unit on fort Sill is having our support Platoon Sergeant write multiple NCOs and NCOERs, even though he has not been their Platoon Sergeant. Can this be an issue or unit get into trouble for this?
First time to ever experience this in my entire career.
First time to ever experience this in my entire career.
NCO Academy
NCOER
Army Regulations
Posted >1 y ago
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Army policy is that NCOER rating chains must be posted and followed. If I remember correctly this very situation was addressed in my Divisions last IG newsletter. There are multiple reasons why this is prohibited. One is that this creates pooling for the Senior Rater, allowing the Senior Rater to game their ratings. It also negatively impacts the Soldiers being evaluated. Each of the Soldiers who is being evaluated by someone outside their rating chain has a justifiable IG complaint
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
SFC (Join to see) well the unit making that one NCO write 6 NCOERs, and how one year is one individual writing dance who we are then the next year is a totally different person without a change of radar or anything. But it seems like it's kind of pointless to even question anything involving this.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Dennis Mendoza HRC can't see that. It's on the unit command to enforce evaluation standards. That's why I said you need to contact your post IG in order to bring your unit into compliance with regulations
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This NCO can fight it, depending on the command climate in the unit. If he was never in their rating chain he or she shouldn't be rating them. We all know this. The problem I see from a realistic standpoint, is does this PSG have people in their chain of command or NCO support channel that will back them when they stand against this?
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
SSG (Join to see) you're right about that but this unit has all new leadership and they're just worried about red cycle taskings and stats. Since taking over the morale has gone down drastically of junior enlisted and immediate supervisors (NCO's). Seems like if you're not part of their group they don't care and that's exactly what everyone is seeing. I'm one of the NCO's that this NCOER thing is happening to. That PSG was my PSG for almost three months back in 2019, we're cool he's actually looking out for everyone but now just concerned that this does not seem to be right at all.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Dennis Mendoza yeah in that case I'd definitely be looking into the command's bosses. Encourage them to swing by and see how things are. If they're new, they should have to do a command climate survey if I'm not mistaken, have everyone be brutally honest. They may want to ignore the results but if EO or the next higher commander has visibility over the results it may make them reestablish their connections with the team.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
SSG (Join to see) they already did they survey and no one participated and you just reminded me we were send the link to the survey hours before it expired so some didn't even have an opportunity to fill it out. It seems that it this comes from brigade it self as long as the numbers look good they don't care how it was done.
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I'm still owed 2 NCOERs. I stayed on top of it but the unit funded me. I had hoped to be an ROTC instructor when I retired but short two NCOERs and it is a show stopper.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
SFC Melvin Brandenburg that's where I worry if this will screw me when I get looked at by the evaluation board next year.
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SFC Melvin Brandenburg
SSG Dennis Mendoza stay on top of it brother. If you don't you will get fucked.
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There are some legitimate reason why the original rater cannot render the NCOERs and the regulation has an entire paragraph on how to resolve that issue. I think in your situation, it is likely the published rating scheme was not valid and the PSG preparing the NCOERS was determined to be the most direct supervisor. I occasionally read on here where a Soldier wants to know how to counsel a more senior Soldier they have been put “in charge of” and I think that may be the case here. If the unit made an NCO who was not senior by either grade or date of rank the PSG, he cannot rate those NCOs unless he is promotable. PSG position does not make him senior. This is different for Officers in Command billets. If the rating scheme is administratively incorrect, the unit must issue a new rating scheme and then make a determination about rating periods, etc.based on the circumstances.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
So that's the whole situation was last year's PSG PCS-ed in January, he left from being platoon sergeant in Novembe 2020. He never initiated a change of rater, the SSG that took over for him out-ranks me by 6 months that's fine with me he deserves it. He also never initiated an initial counseling and around the mid of December he text me asking me to create a support form which I did early January, on March 6th that PSG gets arrested for a DUI and gets relief from being a PSG. Same week I get asked by the acting 1SG where's my NCOER I responded with it's on that SSG's ees profile because I'm unable to access it. The next evening I get a call from support PSG telling me that he's going to write my NCOER that the SSG that got relieved only had three bullets, which I came to find out it was the ones I typed up. Now that support PSG is apparently typing mines and other NCOs NCOERs so the unit doesn't look bad on being late with NCOERs.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" so the 1SG is another SFC that was the 13m school Chief for almost two years and now he pcs to this unit and like I had mentioned he asked me where's my NCOER. I'm like I initiated the support form is in SSG's (previous PSG) EES profile because I can't see it and now cause that individual got a DUI someone else is writing it. It's definitely something I have never experienced in my career
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MSG Gary Eckert
SSG Dennis Mendoza Relief for cause is one of the situations covered in paragraph for eaters that cannot render a report. If your Sr Rater has been in your Chain for at least 60 days and has knowledge of your performance he should complete the report. Check out Section V of AR 623-3 for all the specifics.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
MSG Gary Eckert interesting, but she LT has the PSG that got the DUI do a lot of her work. She's seems pretty lost in that aspect.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
MSgt Mark Bucher So the Army has an evaluation entry system that us as NCOs should be getting initial counsel and quarterly counsel but since coming back in no one has kept up with it and now this evaluation my previous platoon Sergeant ended up getting a DUI so he got relieved and the new platoon Sergeant doesn't know me cause he just arrived to the unit. So the unit has assigned the platoon Sergeant that's been here for over two years to write NCOs yearly evaluations. It feels and seems wrong, like stated on my main post never have I experience this in my career.
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MSgt Mark Bucher
Ok I understand your concerns Dennis. As I’m retired AF, I don’t know the ins and outs of the Army. As a former department, flight, and acting 1st Sergeant, I’ll give you my opinion. In no way should a person not in the direct supervisory chain write an annual performance review. The AF EPR system is similar to the Army’s, requiring feedback between the rater and the ratee. If that doesn’t happen, the ratee can appeal the EPR. How can a person not in the supervision chain do that? No, you’ve got a valid concern and it needs to be addressed at the officer command level.SSG Dennis Mendoza
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
MSgt Mark Bucher well this unit just tries to cover themselves and meet deadlines. It's outrageous how they do things here
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This is absolutely no Bueno. If the IG catches wind of this your unit will be looking for a new 1SG and CO.
On a more "constructive" note, your support PSG is being handed a poison chalice. Rating a soldier who is not yours is a false official statement -- an official lie. It can land you in VERY hot water, especially because even a casual look at the regs will reveal this to be an unlawful order.
On a more "constructive" note, your support PSG is being handed a poison chalice. Rating a soldier who is not yours is a false official statement -- an official lie. It can land you in VERY hot water, especially because even a casual look at the regs will reveal this to be an unlawful order.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
SSG Dale London well this is one of units on fort sill that in rotation they had an NCO commit adultery and the investigator recommended for her to get discharge put of the Army she got supposedly an article 15 but immediately got transferred out of the unit and never did anything involving extra duty.
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Makes you wonder what happened to all their mandated counseling.
Did they have a bonfire with the online computer forms?
Did they have a bonfire with the online computer forms?
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
Well that's the thing these PSG don't believe in doing initials or quarterly support forms. They just put random dates for them so EES takes it. That system is still broken to be honest.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
It feels like can't be brigade CSM that it has to be someone outside this installation to have any changes.
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The ER system has many issues. The big one is someone's opinion of your performance. Yes, your issue is problematic. If you get a ER, you have grounds to appeal [if you can prove it]. If you are mediocre to poor performer, it could be a blessing.
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SSG Dennis Mendoza
You're right just in my opinion seems like it's a crazy situation. That they should have a better plan for. Seems to be the norm in this unit
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