Posted on Mar 30, 2015
No CAR, no respect: The push to end the ribbon rack divide (Your thoughts?)
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http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/03/30/cult-of-combat-action-ribbon-has-it-gone-too-far/70488570/
From the Marine Corps Times. Appeared on my feed, and thought it was worth sharing. Your thoughts appreciated.
- Full Disclosure: I do not have a CAR. Deployed to the Middle East twice during the Ceasefire. Got out before OIF/OEF were fully engaged. Was tagged for recruiting duty so likely would not have been deployed had I reenlisted.
Full story:
Master Sgt. Orlando Reyes was taken aback when he was ridiculed on social media for not having a Combat Action Ribbon after being named the 2014 Military Times' Marine of the Year.
While Reyes, a logistician, had three deployments to Iraq under his belt, his duties had never put him in a position to participate in a combat engagement.
"I didn't expect it to go so far," Reyes said of the criticism he experienced. "In today's era of social media and anonymity of computer posts, people are going to say what they want and there's no repercussions. They think, because of the rack of someone's chest, they have insight into that individual."
The growing discord surrounding Combat Action Ribbons — the award issued by the sea services for active participation in ground or surface combat — is troubling some leaders.
The online criticism illustrates an increasingly vocal perspective among Marines, especially those in the ground combat community. This perspective holds that a Marines' worth and authenticity is closely connected to combat experience, and that those who lack this experience are less deserving of respect.
In some ways, this viewpoint is a natural outgrowth of 14 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford is making it clear that he has no patience for it.
"The coin of the realm is the eagle, globe and anchor," Dunford told Marine Corps Times in a February interview. "It doesn't matter what [military occupational specialty] you have, it doesn't matter what deployments you've been on, it doesn't matter what ribbons are on your chest — it's about being a Marine."
'Stacking each other up'
When Dunford named Sgt. Maj. Ronald Green as his senior enlisted adviser in January, most Marines expressed interest in his background and the reputation he'd built as a thoughtful and involved leader. But a loud minority couldn't get past the stack of ribbons on his chest.
Green, a career artilleryman, did not have a Combat Action Ribbon.
"No CAR ... not the right guy for the job," one reader groused on Marine Corps Times' Facebook page following Green's selection. Others complained that the newly chosen sergeant major of the Marine Corps didn't measure up to other senior leaders who had earned combat valor awards.
Green took the comments in stride.
"We don't go around counting one another's ribbons, and, you know, kind of stacking each other up," he told Marine Corps Times. "We're actually too busy to do that."
When a Marine is tested in combat, Dunford said, how he or she performs is important. But, he added, the same can be said for every task and field to which Marines are assigned.
"Most Marines don't pick their MOS," he said. "Most of us do things that the Marine Corps tells us to do. And it really is about the quality of your performance in the task that you've been assigned that's most important, once you wear the eagle, globe and anchor. And that's how I'm going to approach this issue."
These comments from Dunford, a decorated infantry officer, represents a rebuke to the grunt-centric culture that glorifies combat experience above all else. What remains to be seen, though, is whether the commandant's message is enough to change the culture — or if only time can do that.
Green isn't the only Marine leader to face criticism for lack of a Combat Action Ribbon. Now-retired Gen. James Amos, the 35th commandant and the first from the aviation community, received so much heat online for his lack of a CAR that an aide once jumped into the fray to defend him.
"[Amos] has been in many a fight ... probably killed more enemy with his F-18 than any single company of grunts," the staffer wrote in a Facebook posting before thinking better of it and deleting the comment.
The division is a relatively new challenge for the Corps.
The Combat Action Ribbon did not even exist until February 1969, when the Navy and Marine Corps adopted it in the midst of the Vietnam War. It was retroactively applied to combat engagements stretching back to 1961, and later extended to cover combat dating from the December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor attack that marked the U.S. entrance into World War II. The Coast Guard would adopt the Combat Action Ribbon much later, in 2008.
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands in Thailand during during Exercise Cobra Gold 2014. There is a divide between some Marines who believe combat experience trumps all, and those who feel it should be respected, not revered. (Photo: Cpl. Zachary Scanlon/Marine Corps)
And prior to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Combat Action Ribbons were a rare sight rather than an expected one.
Andrew Northam, a Marine infantry veteran who served from 1990 to 1994, recalled the reverence that surrounded the CAR during that largely peacetime period.
"[CAR recipients] were more revered when I was in," Northam said. "A guy had three Combat Action Ribbons in my unit and he was like a god to us."
Because there were so few opportunities to earn a CAR, he said, they weren't treated like a badge of authenticity. And combat experience wasn't seen as a rite of passage among Marines, as it sometimes is today.
Northam, who deployed to Somalia in late 1993 to support Operation Support Hope, earned a Combat Action Ribbon there, but did not receive it until years later when it was retroactively authorized after he had left the service.
Receiving the award, even late, made Northam realize its significance as a recognition of what he experienced.
"When we looked back on our experience in Somalia, we always thought we should have gotten it; we felt a little robbed by that," he said. "We were taking mortar fire, in an offensive posture. It was a little bit of vindication having that."
Still, Northam believes the hype surrounding the ribbon has gone too far. When news of Green's selection as the Corps' top enlisted leader broke, Northam fired back at Green's critics on the blog USMCLife, calling the belief that senior leaders needed to sport a CAR "fanatical."
"Marines do not get to choose their duty stations; you go where you are assigned," Northam wrote. "As we wind down our nation's longest period at war, the Corps is facing many challenges; two of the biggest are dealing with the overall military drawdown and more importantly, dealing with returning vets and [post-traumatic stress]. Can [Green] conceivably do this without that precious ribbon? I believe so."
An imperfect award
Even today, following a decade and a half of war in two theaters, Combat Action Ribbons are less common than some perceive them to be. According to Marine Corps Manpower and Reserve Affairs, only 20,855 of the 184,567 Marines currently on active duty boast at least one CAR.
With combat arms fields — including infantry, artillery and mechanized units — making up roughly 22 percent of the active-duty force, that means less than half of active Marines in combat arms rate the award. That figure is likely to keep dwindling as wartime deployments are replaced with training, humanitarian and crisis response missions.
Logan Stark's Marine Corps experience was in many ways different from Northam's. He enlisted in 2007, as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were in full swing.
An infantry assaultman, Stark was surrounded by Marines who had already deployed and earned their Combat Action Ribbon. There was definite pressure, he said, to join their ranks.
"When I was a boot, there was the whole concept of, 'you aint sh-- until you got your Combat Action Ribbon," Stark said. "When you're coming up in the fleet, especially the time that I was in, you felt like that was a requirement of being an infantryman in the Marine Corps. It became something that you strived for, that you needed to be that complete Marine."
But there was a dark side to the CAR obsession, Stark soon realized. While deployed to Afghanistan's Sangin valley in 2010 and 2011, Stark said he encountered Marines who would insert themselves into patrols they didn't belong on, just so they could earn their Combat Action Ribbon. The experience altered the way he viewed the award.
"Is it a badge of honor and do I wear it with pride? Yes," said Stark, now a filmmaker and writer for the website Funker350. "But it only holds so much weight. I don't think we should judge people based on whether or not they have it. For some reason, we want to use these really easily identified symbols ... When did we get away from getting to know a person and getting to know their background before judging them?"
Stark said he hopes the Marine Corps will find a balance in which combat experience is honored, but viewed with perspective.
"I want to hear about a person's experiences; I want to learn from their combat," he said. "It shouldn't be a pedestal thing; it should be a way to learn from each other."
Reyes, the master sergeant, said he also observed Marines going out of their way to get a CAR during his deployments to Iraq. The trend wasn't limited to junior Marines, he said; he saw troops that were senior to him finagle their way onto convoys and other missions outside the wire to earn the coveted award. When they did, Reyes said it wasn't only unnecessary, but dangerous.
Now assigned to School of Infantry-East out of Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, Reyes said he encourages junior Marines to value their comrades' character and leadership qualities more than their ribbon stacks.
"We get so bent out of shape with these ribbons and awards that we sacrifice the most important thing to us as Marines: our integrity," he said.
From the Marine Corps Times. Appeared on my feed, and thought it was worth sharing. Your thoughts appreciated.
- Full Disclosure: I do not have a CAR. Deployed to the Middle East twice during the Ceasefire. Got out before OIF/OEF were fully engaged. Was tagged for recruiting duty so likely would not have been deployed had I reenlisted.
Full story:
Master Sgt. Orlando Reyes was taken aback when he was ridiculed on social media for not having a Combat Action Ribbon after being named the 2014 Military Times' Marine of the Year.
While Reyes, a logistician, had three deployments to Iraq under his belt, his duties had never put him in a position to participate in a combat engagement.
"I didn't expect it to go so far," Reyes said of the criticism he experienced. "In today's era of social media and anonymity of computer posts, people are going to say what they want and there's no repercussions. They think, because of the rack of someone's chest, they have insight into that individual."
The growing discord surrounding Combat Action Ribbons — the award issued by the sea services for active participation in ground or surface combat — is troubling some leaders.
The online criticism illustrates an increasingly vocal perspective among Marines, especially those in the ground combat community. This perspective holds that a Marines' worth and authenticity is closely connected to combat experience, and that those who lack this experience are less deserving of respect.
In some ways, this viewpoint is a natural outgrowth of 14 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford is making it clear that he has no patience for it.
"The coin of the realm is the eagle, globe and anchor," Dunford told Marine Corps Times in a February interview. "It doesn't matter what [military occupational specialty] you have, it doesn't matter what deployments you've been on, it doesn't matter what ribbons are on your chest — it's about being a Marine."
'Stacking each other up'
When Dunford named Sgt. Maj. Ronald Green as his senior enlisted adviser in January, most Marines expressed interest in his background and the reputation he'd built as a thoughtful and involved leader. But a loud minority couldn't get past the stack of ribbons on his chest.
Green, a career artilleryman, did not have a Combat Action Ribbon.
"No CAR ... not the right guy for the job," one reader groused on Marine Corps Times' Facebook page following Green's selection. Others complained that the newly chosen sergeant major of the Marine Corps didn't measure up to other senior leaders who had earned combat valor awards.
Green took the comments in stride.
"We don't go around counting one another's ribbons, and, you know, kind of stacking each other up," he told Marine Corps Times. "We're actually too busy to do that."
When a Marine is tested in combat, Dunford said, how he or she performs is important. But, he added, the same can be said for every task and field to which Marines are assigned.
"Most Marines don't pick their MOS," he said. "Most of us do things that the Marine Corps tells us to do. And it really is about the quality of your performance in the task that you've been assigned that's most important, once you wear the eagle, globe and anchor. And that's how I'm going to approach this issue."
These comments from Dunford, a decorated infantry officer, represents a rebuke to the grunt-centric culture that glorifies combat experience above all else. What remains to be seen, though, is whether the commandant's message is enough to change the culture — or if only time can do that.
Green isn't the only Marine leader to face criticism for lack of a Combat Action Ribbon. Now-retired Gen. James Amos, the 35th commandant and the first from the aviation community, received so much heat online for his lack of a CAR that an aide once jumped into the fray to defend him.
"[Amos] has been in many a fight ... probably killed more enemy with his F-18 than any single company of grunts," the staffer wrote in a Facebook posting before thinking better of it and deleting the comment.
The division is a relatively new challenge for the Corps.
The Combat Action Ribbon did not even exist until February 1969, when the Navy and Marine Corps adopted it in the midst of the Vietnam War. It was retroactively applied to combat engagements stretching back to 1961, and later extended to cover combat dating from the December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor attack that marked the U.S. entrance into World War II. The Coast Guard would adopt the Combat Action Ribbon much later, in 2008.
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands in Thailand during during Exercise Cobra Gold 2014. There is a divide between some Marines who believe combat experience trumps all, and those who feel it should be respected, not revered. (Photo: Cpl. Zachary Scanlon/Marine Corps)
And prior to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Combat Action Ribbons were a rare sight rather than an expected one.
Andrew Northam, a Marine infantry veteran who served from 1990 to 1994, recalled the reverence that surrounded the CAR during that largely peacetime period.
"[CAR recipients] were more revered when I was in," Northam said. "A guy had three Combat Action Ribbons in my unit and he was like a god to us."
Because there were so few opportunities to earn a CAR, he said, they weren't treated like a badge of authenticity. And combat experience wasn't seen as a rite of passage among Marines, as it sometimes is today.
Northam, who deployed to Somalia in late 1993 to support Operation Support Hope, earned a Combat Action Ribbon there, but did not receive it until years later when it was retroactively authorized after he had left the service.
Receiving the award, even late, made Northam realize its significance as a recognition of what he experienced.
"When we looked back on our experience in Somalia, we always thought we should have gotten it; we felt a little robbed by that," he said. "We were taking mortar fire, in an offensive posture. It was a little bit of vindication having that."
Still, Northam believes the hype surrounding the ribbon has gone too far. When news of Green's selection as the Corps' top enlisted leader broke, Northam fired back at Green's critics on the blog USMCLife, calling the belief that senior leaders needed to sport a CAR "fanatical."
"Marines do not get to choose their duty stations; you go where you are assigned," Northam wrote. "As we wind down our nation's longest period at war, the Corps is facing many challenges; two of the biggest are dealing with the overall military drawdown and more importantly, dealing with returning vets and [post-traumatic stress]. Can [Green] conceivably do this without that precious ribbon? I believe so."
An imperfect award
Even today, following a decade and a half of war in two theaters, Combat Action Ribbons are less common than some perceive them to be. According to Marine Corps Manpower and Reserve Affairs, only 20,855 of the 184,567 Marines currently on active duty boast at least one CAR.
With combat arms fields — including infantry, artillery and mechanized units — making up roughly 22 percent of the active-duty force, that means less than half of active Marines in combat arms rate the award. That figure is likely to keep dwindling as wartime deployments are replaced with training, humanitarian and crisis response missions.
Logan Stark's Marine Corps experience was in many ways different from Northam's. He enlisted in 2007, as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were in full swing.
An infantry assaultman, Stark was surrounded by Marines who had already deployed and earned their Combat Action Ribbon. There was definite pressure, he said, to join their ranks.
"When I was a boot, there was the whole concept of, 'you aint sh-- until you got your Combat Action Ribbon," Stark said. "When you're coming up in the fleet, especially the time that I was in, you felt like that was a requirement of being an infantryman in the Marine Corps. It became something that you strived for, that you needed to be that complete Marine."
But there was a dark side to the CAR obsession, Stark soon realized. While deployed to Afghanistan's Sangin valley in 2010 and 2011, Stark said he encountered Marines who would insert themselves into patrols they didn't belong on, just so they could earn their Combat Action Ribbon. The experience altered the way he viewed the award.
"Is it a badge of honor and do I wear it with pride? Yes," said Stark, now a filmmaker and writer for the website Funker350. "But it only holds so much weight. I don't think we should judge people based on whether or not they have it. For some reason, we want to use these really easily identified symbols ... When did we get away from getting to know a person and getting to know their background before judging them?"
Stark said he hopes the Marine Corps will find a balance in which combat experience is honored, but viewed with perspective.
"I want to hear about a person's experiences; I want to learn from their combat," he said. "It shouldn't be a pedestal thing; it should be a way to learn from each other."
Reyes, the master sergeant, said he also observed Marines going out of their way to get a CAR during his deployments to Iraq. The trend wasn't limited to junior Marines, he said; he saw troops that were senior to him finagle their way onto convoys and other missions outside the wire to earn the coveted award. When they did, Reyes said it wasn't only unnecessary, but dangerous.
Now assigned to School of Infantry-East out of Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, Reyes said he encourages junior Marines to value their comrades' character and leadership qualities more than their ribbon stacks.
"We get so bent out of shape with these ribbons and awards that we sacrifice the most important thing to us as Marines: our integrity," he said.
Combat
Leadership
Deployment
Respect
Ribbons
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 41
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Not a Marine obviously, but we have a similar attitude in the Army towards the CAB/CIB/CMB. I do not have a CIB or CAB, so my perception may admittedly be somewhat biased. However, this is my take on it: Our awards system is too broken to evaluate someone's competence solely based upon one little badge or ribbon. Furthermore, most of us had no control over what mission we were given or where we're sent.
The unit I deployed with was very strict with awards. We had troops who were hit with shrapnel from an incoming mortar round not receive a CIB because an ADA system had eliminated some of it. During the same period of time other units blanketed their entire formation because their FOB was occasionally mortared. I also know of units who blanketed the entire convoy if one truck was hit with an IED. Should my time outside the wire be valued less than the fobbit who received a CAB this way? Using their criteria I would've earned my CAB many times over. This disparity cheapens the awards in my opinion.
Ultimately I agree there should be a level of prestige with these types of awards. That is why they were established. However, I've met plenty of dirtbags with CIBs and CABs. Lacking one of these awards certainly should not disqualify or diminish an individual. As individuals we have almost no control over where we're deployed to and even less over who the enemy chooses to engage. I have respect for anyone who put the uniform on and served honorably.
The unit I deployed with was very strict with awards. We had troops who were hit with shrapnel from an incoming mortar round not receive a CIB because an ADA system had eliminated some of it. During the same period of time other units blanketed their entire formation because their FOB was occasionally mortared. I also know of units who blanketed the entire convoy if one truck was hit with an IED. Should my time outside the wire be valued less than the fobbit who received a CAB this way? Using their criteria I would've earned my CAB many times over. This disparity cheapens the awards in my opinion.
Ultimately I agree there should be a level of prestige with these types of awards. That is why they were established. However, I've met plenty of dirtbags with CIBs and CABs. Lacking one of these awards certainly should not disqualify or diminish an individual. As individuals we have almost no control over where we're deployed to and even less over who the enemy chooses to engage. I have respect for anyone who put the uniform on and served honorably.
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This discussion came up on Facebook afew days ago as well. Here is my take on it, this is exactly what I posted on that discussion.
I have two trains of thought on this.
1) The CAR is indeed special and shouldn't just be handed out because "you were attached to a unit that took fire". I do believe that the way it is awarded should be tightened up to ensure crap like that doesn't happen.
2) I believe that ridiculing Marines that don't have one is also shameful. My grandfather earned his Combat Infantry Badge the hard way in WWII, 180 days of straight combat and no relief. He never once ridiculed a fellow veteran that didn't have a CIB. He also taught me that yes, he was proud to have been a grunt. But he also made sure that I knew that his grunts (he was a SSgt) couldn't have gotten their job done with out REMFS, or POGS as we are now called.
If you got a CAR for legitimate reasons, then man I applaud you, and respect the crap you went through to earn that award. But the moment you belittle a Marine because he/she never had the "opportunity" to earn one, that respect flies right out the window. I'm the first to admit when I meet other veterans that I'm a POG, I also don't try to BS them that I did anything special nor am I ashamed that I don't have a CAR. Why would I have one, I was a comm tech that wasn't even allowed to be on a QRF because of my technical field. But that was the agreement between my wife and I before I enlisted, no combat related MOS. But I chose to be a Marine because they are the best, regardless of Grunt or POG status.
End of pointless soap box rant. You may wake up now.
I have two trains of thought on this.
1) The CAR is indeed special and shouldn't just be handed out because "you were attached to a unit that took fire". I do believe that the way it is awarded should be tightened up to ensure crap like that doesn't happen.
2) I believe that ridiculing Marines that don't have one is also shameful. My grandfather earned his Combat Infantry Badge the hard way in WWII, 180 days of straight combat and no relief. He never once ridiculed a fellow veteran that didn't have a CIB. He also taught me that yes, he was proud to have been a grunt. But he also made sure that I knew that his grunts (he was a SSgt) couldn't have gotten their job done with out REMFS, or POGS as we are now called.
If you got a CAR for legitimate reasons, then man I applaud you, and respect the crap you went through to earn that award. But the moment you belittle a Marine because he/she never had the "opportunity" to earn one, that respect flies right out the window. I'm the first to admit when I meet other veterans that I'm a POG, I also don't try to BS them that I did anything special nor am I ashamed that I don't have a CAR. Why would I have one, I was a comm tech that wasn't even allowed to be on a QRF because of my technical field. But that was the agreement between my wife and I before I enlisted, no combat related MOS. But I chose to be a Marine because they are the best, regardless of Grunt or POG status.
End of pointless soap box rant. You may wake up now.
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This is something separates leaders and heroes. So many times we see guys like Dan Daly or Chesty Puller as the Heroes of the Corps. It is hard to reach such esteem from your peers when you were not in combat.
This is much the same way in the Army in many facets. In the Army if you want to be recognized as being a great soldier you are expected to have served in combat. If you were in during the past two wars and never went it would really question your effective when everyone else was tested by going to combat.
In the Army infantry we have the same situation with the coveted Ranger Tab. If you are an infantry officer without a Ranger Tab you will not be viewed in the same light as one with. You will not get the good assignments or promote as fast. There is just an expectation of commitment getting one that separates you.
This is much the same way in the Army in many facets. In the Army if you want to be recognized as being a great soldier you are expected to have served in combat. If you were in during the past two wars and never went it would really question your effective when everyone else was tested by going to combat.
In the Army infantry we have the same situation with the coveted Ranger Tab. If you are an infantry officer without a Ranger Tab you will not be viewed in the same light as one with. You will not get the good assignments or promote as fast. There is just an expectation of commitment getting one that separates you.
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Capt Richard I P.
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS As you are no doubt aware (but others may not based solely on the comment), they saw their combat before that specific award existed. However, their multiple valor awards do fit the bill for a "strip of fabric on their chest to show [that they were in combat]".
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Capt Richard I P. Absolutely. But that boils down to the "whole Marine" concept, as opposed to the "No CAR, No respect" item that was highlighted in the article.
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CPT (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS It is just something that will always be there. In the warrior class the Warriors will always be more revered. It is not that they look down on the others but once you fought in combat you have reached an almost elevated status among your peers. I am not saying it is right but that is the way it is. We are war fighters. That actually trigger puller get the accolades. I have yet to hear of a war hero that was not for anything else other then fighting in war time.
Von Steuben is the only one that comes to mind as a military great that wasn't directly involved in battle.
Von Steuben is the only one that comes to mind as a military great that wasn't directly involved in battle.
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PO1 Dustin Adams
I think in part, that in military culture your "rack" is considered a snapshot of what you have done in your career, right or wrong most of "us" form part of our initial impression of someone based on what's on their chest. The rub comes in when you have the issue of some units liberally applying the regulations to issue awards when other units go the other way and are strictly legalistic in applying the regulations.
For example during Desert Storm one of the Navy Hospital ships issued CARs to the crew members because a scud flew by (was visible in the distance) meanwhile most Marine Corps units were not issuing the CAR unless you were directly involved in a firefight with enemy forces.
In a somewhat twisted irony the new Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps does not have a CAR but the current MCPON (Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy) does.
For example during Desert Storm one of the Navy Hospital ships issued CARs to the crew members because a scud flew by (was visible in the distance) meanwhile most Marine Corps units were not issuing the CAR unless you were directly involved in a firefight with enemy forces.
In a somewhat twisted irony the new Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps does not have a CAR but the current MCPON (Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy) does.
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There are those who have jobs that might never lead them into combat... it shouldn't lessen the importance of their sacrifices.
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SFC (Join to see)
No but, that is why we have Combat Operators ( Engineers, Infantry, Rangers, Special Operations Battalion ) and Combat Support Operators ( Quartermaster Branch, Ordnance Corps, Ammunitions etc.). During OEF and OIF, Soldiers with support MOS (Army Military Occupation Specialties) have earn Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars with V for Valor just like any Combat Operator so, now days if you have a support MOS, you need to be ready to deploy and provide support to any Combat Operations Battalion and most likely, you will see combat. Now, if you are not deploying? That’s another story…….
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SP5 Michael Rathbun
Heh. You left out Signal. We were those crazy lads who stood atop hills in plain view of both sides, waving flags or torches depending upon whether the sun was up or down.
Later on, we'd be by overhead in a balloon taking pictures of your deployments and cantonments.
We were still doing that stuff way back when I was in.
Later on, we'd be by overhead in a balloon taking pictures of your deployments and cantonments.
We were still doing that stuff way back when I was in.
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Okay is this a huge deal? Being Air Force and a aircraft mechanic not trackin.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
The CAR for Marines/Navy is like the CIB/CMB/CAB is for Army. It shows that you have personally received/given fire in a hostile environment (now includes IED). As a Ground Force organization, it's the ribbon that says "been there." It's actually our highest "ribbon" (there are higher medals, but not ribbons).
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MSgt (Join to see)
Thanks we have a combat action ribbon. Wasn't sure if it's the same thing or not.
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GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad
I am not surprised that the Air Force has a Combat Action Medal (vs. Ribbon).
Frankly, I have never understood the logic of the "ribbon-only" mentality with regard to the CAR --- there are numerous medals awarded that are of far lesser "value" (as demonstrated by the comments on this thread). Yet, the CAR is just a ribbon with no associated medal.
Frankly, I have never understood the logic of the "ribbon-only" mentality with regard to the CAR --- there are numerous medals awarded that are of far lesser "value" (as demonstrated by the comments on this thread). Yet, the CAR is just a ribbon with no associated medal.
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Most of you being Marines should understand that most Marines view and scrutinized other Marines about the medals and ribbon on their chest. It's a philosophy instilled in every Marines during bootcamp, beginning with this cadence, "if I die in a combat zone, box me up and send me home. Pin my MEDALS upon my chest, tell my momma I did my best". Additionally, Marine Corps is the stingiest military service when it comes to giving out medals. You'll be lucky to get a GCM in your first enlistment.
Unlike the Army and Air Force where they give out ribbon like candy. The Navy has to give out medals after every deployment and I've seen someone received a Navy Achievement Medal just by pointing at a box of junk and his write up was he supposedly "assisted in the rebuilding of an electronic machine vital to the mission", while the person that actually fixed the machine got a pat on the back.
So I can see why so many people would scrutinized the SgtMaj of the Marines Corps about his ribbon. He's someone you look up to in awe because of his position and that position requires a great deal of respect. Nothing spells respect in the Marines Corps than a rack of ribbons, especially combat related ribbons.
Unlike the Army and Air Force where they give out ribbon like candy. The Navy has to give out medals after every deployment and I've seen someone received a Navy Achievement Medal just by pointing at a box of junk and his write up was he supposedly "assisted in the rebuilding of an electronic machine vital to the mission", while the person that actually fixed the machine got a pat on the back.
So I can see why so many people would scrutinized the SgtMaj of the Marines Corps about his ribbon. He's someone you look up to in awe because of his position and that position requires a great deal of respect. Nothing spells respect in the Marines Corps than a rack of ribbons, especially combat related ribbons.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
TSgt Joshua Copeland
And he knew something about motivating the troopies!
Sorry about that Russia thingie tho....
Great post!
And he knew something about motivating the troopies!
Sorry about that Russia thingie tho....
Great post!
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SFC (Join to see)
Yep, the Army gave me my entire rack because I love candy, nothing to do with the 38 months I spent deployed to combat zones cpl. Since you've served in every branch obviously to form a valid opinion, you must have missed the award bureaucracy that all deployed Soldiers went through which had many of them returning with a campaign ribbon and a certificate of achievement. That's after 12+ months, not a 6-9 month short tour.
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Cpl Tou Lee Yang
Joshua, please spare me the difference in deployment length. I would rather spend 4 years deployed on land than doing 9+ months at sea. Going 2 consecutive months without seeing land is a a great feeling I wouldn't want for my enemy. Working more than 12 hours a day including holiday and the only day you get off is Sunday, if you're lucky because you're religious and just have to attend service/mass.
Every service knows the Army gives ribbon just for throwing grenades and graduating boot camp. Now wonder you have a full rack, even my brother-in-law have more ribbons than me and he being only a Specialist.
Every service knows the Army gives ribbon just for throwing grenades and graduating boot camp. Now wonder you have a full rack, even my brother-in-law have more ribbons than me and he being only a Specialist.
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Capt Terry Fillmore
I was in the Marine Corps for 14 years. I had 2 ribbons when I got out - a National Defense Ribbon (Vietnam Era) and a Good Conduct Ribbon. We had a picture taken of all of the Battalion officers in 2nd Battalion, Parris Island, and I had more ribbons than most of them. In the Marine Corps, at least back then, you had to earn your ribbon. I remember a Marine earning a Navy Achievement Medal in 1987, and it was a huge deal. Looking back in history, I see that WWII Vets were lucky to have two rows of ribbons. These days, when I see pictures of soldiers, Marines, etc., I see 5 or 6 rows of ribbons, minimum. If nothing else, it does seem like awards are being given out more liberally. I am a member of marines.togetherweserved.com, and when I'm looking at the Vietnam veteran's ribbon racks, they are similar to the WWII racks - maybe 5 or 6 ribbons on average. Things sure have changed.
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Suspended Profile
Perhaps the more accurate measure for Marines is the Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (I have 4, as not all my operations got one)... Since many folks deployed and served with distinction, but didn't qualify for the CAR for one reason or another. Gen. Amos is a perfect example. If you look at his Air Medals and DFCs you'll see quite the story, along with his SSDR, even though he never got the CAR...
Ditto the Army, it used to be that only Infantry got recognition - hence the CIB and it's vaulted status. But now they have the CAB, which is roughly equivalent to the CAR, and more people get it... Does that make people better or worse?
Ditto the Army, it used to be that only Infantry got recognition - hence the CIB and it's vaulted status. But now they have the CAB, which is roughly equivalent to the CAR, and more people get it... Does that make people better or worse?
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Considering the optempo for the last 30 years, I have respect for anyone that dons a uniform of any service. We were fired upon and shelled a few times in Somalia, but it was more of a nuisance. Plenty mixed it up pretty good though. CAR is a Badge of Honor IMO because everyone volunteered, and did their job under fire. Same as those before them in years past, draftee or not.
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Believe it or not this is a minor grievance as far as combat action awards go in the military. Take the Army for example. For the longest time if you didn't have a 11 series mos or related and saw combat all you got was basically an AAM and a certificate of achievement saying thanks for your effort it helped save lives whereas the former got a CIB and you were fawned all over. Fast forward to the introduction of the CAB for recognition of those soldiers who were not 11 series but saw just as much combat and even then you are still looked at by a lot of your peers as a joke for wearing the wreath, bayonet and grenade badge and not the wreath and musket because they will always be seen as a "pog" and the badge is just an indicator to those who would threat you as such. The Army is so much more toxic when it comes to stuff like this to the point I've known guys not wear them when they get them just so they don't have to hear their shit. Well they certainly don't hear it until after mealtimes, after they see doc, mail call or payday rolls around then when they are going through the line and the comments are kept quiet long enough for them to get the things that mean the most to them.
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