Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Regulation
Mentorship
Leadership
Professionalism
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 710
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The standards are the standards for that very reason, to be enforced by leadership...without fail!
You made your move to correct the specialist & was instantly disreguarded as a NCO.
Now, It's at that point you explain to the Soldier that she don't want to make this a bigger deal that it has to be & also suggest she think about what her Command would think of this violation of AR670-1 esp. her First Sergeant because you will take this up higher, if need be!
Close with "Square Yourself Away, Soldier" & stand there with your game face on! She would've fix herself at that point, SSG Robinson...
Being a NCO means doing the dirty work, outside the wire & at home, so always remember when you see Soldiers not doing the right thing, in violation of the standards or when you spy a fake in the crowd...
Remember "No one is more professional than I".
You made your move to correct the specialist & was instantly disreguarded as a NCO.
Now, It's at that point you explain to the Soldier that she don't want to make this a bigger deal that it has to be & also suggest she think about what her Command would think of this violation of AR670-1 esp. her First Sergeant because you will take this up higher, if need be!
Close with "Square Yourself Away, Soldier" & stand there with your game face on! She would've fix herself at that point, SSG Robinson...
Being a NCO means doing the dirty work, outside the wire & at home, so always remember when you see Soldiers not doing the right thing, in violation of the standards or when you spy a fake in the crowd...
Remember "No one is more professional than I".
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The problem is, is she was already making a scene at the mall. I know its hard to do at times especially in civilian gear and in a civilian environment, but I would have approached her like a straight Drill Sergeant. Walk right up to her and ask if she is in the Army and when she says yes continue the creating the scene she has already created. Ask her, "what the hell is wrong with you? Take your cover off and fix your hair. You are an embarrassment to everyone who wears that uniform proudly, people have died in that uniform. Fix yourself."
Not yell but have a loud and commanding voice. In my mind she would have 2 options at that point. Go ahead and do it and walk away with her head low wondering 'what was his problem...' or ignore you and everyone around would know that she is completely wrong and she would have to walk a good way before people stopped looking at her like the disease she is.
Not yell but have a loud and commanding voice. In my mind she would have 2 options at that point. Go ahead and do it and walk away with her head low wondering 'what was his problem...' or ignore you and everyone around would know that she is completely wrong and she would have to walk a good way before people stopped looking at her like the disease she is.
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SSG (Join to see) SSG Robinson I applaud you! I at the rank of SSG would have lost my mind... as my wife watched on a few occasions. Especially if the eyes got rolled. That of course was a younger and my more homicidal side...I have since mellowed. :o) I think you did the right thing. Disengage before it escalates... That is not good for the civilian onlookers to witness as they would not understand.
Let me offer you a technique for the next instantance this occurs... and it will!
Start off with a semi smile of recognition "Hey! I'm Sergeant Wesson... aren't you in Charlie 2-25?"
Or what ever local units you have... doesn't matter just as long as you do not "appear threatening".
A dollar to a dime they will reply with their actual unit (pavlow's dog response almost).
Then you let the smile fade and politely say, "Well, I just wanted to let you know that your in violation of.... and need to correct yourself before someone else sees you like that. Thank you!" and walk away... and then watch.
Now you have their Rank, Name, and unit... if they ignore you... then you can go to their unit 1SG and report them! In my experience... the first part always has done the trick for me. However, I was prepared to go to the unit is they didn't correct themselves.
just a technique... and it still works... I used it down at Sam Houston a dozen times... and I'm retired.
Hope it helps!
Let me offer you a technique for the next instantance this occurs... and it will!
Start off with a semi smile of recognition "Hey! I'm Sergeant Wesson... aren't you in Charlie 2-25?"
Or what ever local units you have... doesn't matter just as long as you do not "appear threatening".
A dollar to a dime they will reply with their actual unit (pavlow's dog response almost).
Then you let the smile fade and politely say, "Well, I just wanted to let you know that your in violation of.... and need to correct yourself before someone else sees you like that. Thank you!" and walk away... and then watch.
Now you have their Rank, Name, and unit... if they ignore you... then you can go to their unit 1SG and report them! In my experience... the first part always has done the trick for me. However, I was prepared to go to the unit is they didn't correct themselves.
just a technique... and it still works... I used it down at Sam Houston a dozen times... and I'm retired.
Hope it helps!
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There is absolutely a time and place for mentorship and correction. Show your ID, and pull her aside. If you're of equal or even lower rank, that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility in correcting. I've privately called LTs out for uniform issues, and received no backlash then or after. We all represent our Services equally. Do use tact in how you address higher ranked individuals though.
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SSG (Join to see)
I think your actions and instincts were spot on until the SPC rolled her eyes. I cannot say I would have done anything different in the moment but I hope I would have yanked her chain as soon as she tried to get an attitude. You were doing her a favor by helping her become aware of her error(s)…not that she wasn’t but we will pretend.
In my opinion, as soon as she rolled her eyes and/or failed to remove herself from public to make corrections, you quietly and calmly take the specialist aside and direct her to return to her home or duty location. If the Specialist wants to return, she will either not be in uniform or in the correct uniform, if appropriate. Get the contact information for her unit and talk to your peer in her unit, so they are aware of what happened and can help mentor this solder so she does not make the same errors in the future. To often we think people actually know what they are supposed to do, so maybe we should give this young soldier the benefit of the doubt?
At least those posing as soldiers try to get their uniforms right?
From the fact that you posted it on RP, you knew what you should have done and you now know what to do in the future.
I think your actions and instincts were spot on until the SPC rolled her eyes. I cannot say I would have done anything different in the moment but I hope I would have yanked her chain as soon as she tried to get an attitude. You were doing her a favor by helping her become aware of her error(s)…not that she wasn’t but we will pretend.
In my opinion, as soon as she rolled her eyes and/or failed to remove herself from public to make corrections, you quietly and calmly take the specialist aside and direct her to return to her home or duty location. If the Specialist wants to return, she will either not be in uniform or in the correct uniform, if appropriate. Get the contact information for her unit and talk to your peer in her unit, so they are aware of what happened and can help mentor this solder so she does not make the same errors in the future. To often we think people actually know what they are supposed to do, so maybe we should give this young soldier the benefit of the doubt?
At least those posing as soldiers try to get their uniforms right?
From the fact that you posted it on RP, you knew what you should have done and you now know what to do in the future.
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SSG (Join to see)
MSG Brad Stevens, I was on leave in Dallas. Knowing that a Army base was not anywhere insight I didn't ask for her contact information. making a scene was the last thing I wanted during the incident.
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MSG Brad Sand
Pvt Tom Brown I was not talking about physically taking her aside BUT I think you will find there are ways to make soldiers, even ones you who are soup sandwiches, do what they are told and to help them learn who not to mess with.
SSG (Join to see)
Got it brother. I understand not making a scene, but from your post it seemed that your conscious was telling you should have done more and I would mentor you to not ignore that inner voice. Yes, we have to make sure we do not make scene but we also have to do the hard right too sometimes. I think you played the cards you had well, but I think next time you might want to consider more options? You might decide to do the same thing but that is part of the beauty of RallyPoint?
Not sure who Top Stevens is so if that was not addressed to me forgive my error.
SSG (Join to see)
Got it brother. I understand not making a scene, but from your post it seemed that your conscious was telling you should have done more and I would mentor you to not ignore that inner voice. Yes, we have to make sure we do not make scene but we also have to do the hard right too sometimes. I think you played the cards you had well, but I think next time you might want to consider more options? You might decide to do the same thing but that is part of the beauty of RallyPoint?
Not sure who Top Stevens is so if that was not addressed to me forgive my error.
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I would have loved to be there! I would have wait like 5 minutes after you spoke to her and correct her. Then talk with the guy taking the tickets to tell her something, and the guy selling popcorn, and the janitor, so everybody would tell her something. but that's me SSG (Join to see).
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As NCO's we have to hold ourselves to a high standard, so it is very important for us to make our subordinates uphold that standard as well. If we don't, we are as guilty as they are for not making them adhere to the standard. In your situation, I would've asked to speak to her in private for a minute. I would have politely walked up to that Soldier and asked her if she was actually a Soldier. I even probably would have thanked her for her service. Also, I would have asked her what unit she belonged too. Once she would have given me the Unit that she is assigned too. I would have identified myself by showing her my Military ID (If I wasn't in uniform). I then would have insisted (in a kind manner) that she make the necessary corrections to her uniform as well as to her hair. If she would have given me attitude, I would have reminded her that giving attitude is a form of disrespect and can be punishable by UMCJ. I also would've have reminded her I know what Unit she is in, and will be informing her Chain of Command if she didn't make the corrections right then.
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I received an on the spot correction from a CSM when I was a basic trainee home on Christmas exodus. This was 1982 and I was 6 weeks into basic. My father was in a cav unit in '62-'63. He had a gold ascot that he wore when on guard duty and for parades. I was handed this when I was very young and decided to wear it when I took my sister to the mall, right before Christmas. I put this on under my dress green shirt instead of the tie. I was all impressed with myself until I bumped into this CSM in dress green uniform who was with his wife. This man was of course a Vietnam vet and likely Korea too. Mucho fruit salad on his rack. How he handled the matter of my uniform flaw was pure NCO genius. He greeted me and introduced his wife. I introduced my sister. He asked about my BT experience and my advanced training. His wife sensed something and struck up a conversation with my sister, and it was then that he asked about the ascot. He congratulated me on pride in my father's service, asking where and what unit. Then he kindly pointed out that it was not proper uniform, and encouraged me not to do it again. We rejoined the ladies conversation and exchanged Christmas wishes. That was that. My Dad hooted when he heard about it. Class act that CSM was. That experience made me feel part of a larger family.
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OK, as a retired USAF E-7, 1959- 1980. Two things here, one we praise in public and correct in private. She was in a public place. If no way to counsel her privately go on about your business. Two, you have no way of knowing what is going on, did she just complete a duty shift and get there without a chance to change her attire? Standards are fine but they do not always consider reality. The question was asked and answered, Yes she knew that she was in violation, and caught. A word to the wise and she will think twice before committing the same breech of discipline.
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(Join to see)
Excellent reply Fred... Compassion is one of the leadership traits.. yet many who claim to be "leaders" tend to be authoritative instead of showing real leadership... this SSG (I have tremendous respect for him for serving our country) not just took a photo of that girl WITHOUT her consent but instead put it on the internet for open discussion. Did he even realize that she is not a "Commodity" that needs to be discussed and ridiculed on a public forum. Is this what leaders do? take a picture of someone who they think did something wrong and seek affirmation (and Kudos) on an internet forum?
I bet that SSG, while showing off his "leadership", forgot to ask her if she's doing okay.. or if she's struggling with anything... long story short... too many variables.. one size doesn't fit all... and most importantly ... "Authority is a poor substitute for leadership" (not my quote.. read it somewhere)...
I bet that SSG, while showing off his "leadership", forgot to ask her if she's doing okay.. or if she's struggling with anything... long story short... too many variables.. one size doesn't fit all... and most importantly ... "Authority is a poor substitute for leadership" (not my quote.. read it somewhere)...
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Sgt Karl Domrose
SrA are you F-ing Kidding me!?
That "Touchy-Feely" shit has no place in the Military!
It WAS NOT his job to ask if she was doing OK, or if she was struggling with anything.
Her ass needed to be corrected.
I also think YOUR ass needs a bit of correcting.
That "Touchy-Feely" shit has no place in the Military!
It WAS NOT his job to ask if she was doing OK, or if she was struggling with anything.
Her ass needed to be corrected.
I also think YOUR ass needs a bit of correcting.
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at least when I was in the Corps, it was very common that someone who was f-d up out in town or on base, would get corrected. It was not that rare to see a young Marine getting an ass chewing at the mall in Jacksonville for being bag nasty. Of course there was the small percentage of NCO's or SNCO's who were jerks going looking for excuses to go on a power trip but most of the time it was an NCO/SNCO that wanted to reinforce that you are a Marine 24/7/365 and are always accountable for your actions. Don't know if things have changed
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Sgt David Holmes
funny story about correcting Marines....when I was in, especially in Okinawa, there was this thing about staying off of the grass. If you were walking and took a shortcut through a field or PT area, you were risking getting yelled at by some SNCO. When I was at Corporal's Leadership Course a senior SNCO (can't remember, maybe a MSgt) during a group session was talking with my squad about how and when to correct a Marine's behavior and after one of the other Cpl's asked about reasons for some of the official or unofficial rules of behavior such as having your T-shirt tucked into jeans...the SNCO said that he knew that some of them didn't make sense such as having to stay off the grass which goes against taking the most expeditionary route. He asked us if we even knew where the whole idea of not walking on the grass came from and one of the guys said maybe from now wanting to trample grass by the Brass' house, He said that when he was a young Lance Corporal he was told the real story..........In Nam they had a real problem with guys getting high and smoking weed so SNCO jargon developed to include the saying "get off the grass"....well a few hard headed Marines interpreted it literally, stayed in the Corps after the war and spent the better part of the late 70's and early 80's terrorizing Lance Corporals for walking across the grass...HEY DEVIL DOG, GET OFF THE GRASS! LOL
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