Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Regulation
Mentorship
Leadership
Professionalism
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
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Just ran across this and I am torn. When I was in high school I was wearing stuff bought at an A/N surplus store, no insignia or anything, and a hat left to me from my grandfather. I am not convinced any of the stuff went together by branch, season, uniform set, and I know the graphic tee was not. Yet an elderly woman was furious and yelled at me. I was on subs for 6 years and neither of the commands were very anal about uniforms unless the rare dignitary was coming around. That being said at what point is a uniform not be considered a uniform. Working uniforms can basically be bought anywhere even BDU's. From the image if not for the rate/ranks etc she would look like anyone. I guess I never put much "....." (not sure what word to use, Pride?) in the working uniform, dress uniforms on the other hand very much so.
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According to this story not only was she in violation of wearing the uniform correctly..... She was fully aware of it and proceeded to do so with out regard for what the uniform stands for. At that point I would have pulled rank and obtained her unit and first Sgts name. Have we become so scared of confrontation from our younger troops that we have become that weak? In the eyes of the public they expect us to uphold standards and this showed the public we don't have the backbone to so to our own people.
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Walk up, start a conversation, ask where she is stationed, get her name and unit. With all that information once you introduce yourself; name, rank, I can assure you would have received a better response. At that point you ask to speak with her on the side and make the necessary correction. Any non compliance should be quickly followed up with her command ATL include that pic.
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You did the right thing. Just the fact that you corrected the SPC means she may think twice. I recently followed a Marine wearing USMC PT gear out of the liquor store, stopped him politely and asked him "are we authorized to wear USMC PT gear in public." He replied "no, sir we are not." I gave him a nod and said "Semper Fidelis, Marine." I knew he immediately got it. No knife hand or Devil Dog required.
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as a retired service member, i am a firm believer in right is right and wrong is wrong. it is our duty to police each other up in a professional manner. it is not to criticize one another with the goal to embarrass one another but to instill the understanding that we represent more than ourselves. being back on the civilian side of the fence, you really do see that the general public doesn't look at any service member as an individual but as on organization. when we accomplish something, the accomplishment should be what shines to the public. i would of took her to the side and talked to her to correct the action. if she thinks it was that much of a hassle to be out of reg's on purpose, she could of simply went to the movies in civilian attire. there wouldn't have been any reason to skull drag her in public. at the very least after taking her aside and talking to her, if she continued to carry an attitude, it would be too easy to request her unit. if she refused, too easy to utilize a smart phone to capture. every situation is handled differently but professionalism is still professionalism.
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SSG (Join to see) I would say you just need to know what battles to pick. In this case the SPC was wrong and did not care. What can you do to make someone care? The fact that some people say you can always make them must realize we cannot physically beat them into submission. I try to make corrections when I see them and make them as less embarrassing as possible. I called a SFC over to tell him that his nametapes were on the wrong side (more common than you would think). I tried to get him by himself. Unfortunately his two juniors also came over. He said he was so embarrassed and apologized. I told him it was ok and that I just wanted to help him out. He is the type of servicemember that do the on the spot corrections for. To help them out and do it respectful. In your case they do not care and do not respect the uniform. Those are the ones I wish would just take off the uniform and walk away from the service. If they do not care how they appear and represent our services they show disrespect to those who died in the uniform.
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I would have noted her unit and contacted her commander. That kind of disrespect for the uniform and office is unacceptable.
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You should have identified yourself and asked her who her company commander is. It would have scared the hell out of her and she would have corrected herself and most likely would never have done it again.
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While you are in uniform, you are held to standard. Make the correction! We are professionals, act as such!
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You just gave an SPC power over an NCO when you removed yourself from the situation. If you weren't going to follow through, than you should not have said anything. You should have identified yourself after she answered yes to knowing she was in violation of Army Regs and requested her ID and the name of her 1st SGT. A scene did not need to be made and she should have been instructed to correct herself per Army Regs.
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Well by all means you have a right as an NCO to correct a violation. I would of asked her politely to step off to the side and identified who I am and asked her to provide me with her full name and unit and last four. As a NCO you have the right to request that she surrender her military ID also.
The I would of asked her where she was stationed and the name of her Cmdr and top shirt. The I would of informed her that since she admitted to the fact that she was out of uniform and the reason she was wearing her uniform was for personnel gain from public establishment. What AR 670-1 state reference to proper wearing of military uniform and female hair grooming policy.
The problem with today's military is the lack of STRUCTURE/LEADERSHIP/
DISCIPLINE Today's young generation hasn't a clue to what life/respect/self-respect/honor means.
Either way no matter what branch of service she was in if she was in uniform. She was under US Title 10 or 32 which stated that she was on active duty and falls under the UCMJ.
The I would of asked her where she was stationed and the name of her Cmdr and top shirt. The I would of informed her that since she admitted to the fact that she was out of uniform and the reason she was wearing her uniform was for personnel gain from public establishment. What AR 670-1 state reference to proper wearing of military uniform and female hair grooming policy.
The problem with today's military is the lack of STRUCTURE/LEADERSHIP/
DISCIPLINE Today's young generation hasn't a clue to what life/respect/self-respect/honor means.
Either way no matter what branch of service she was in if she was in uniform. She was under US Title 10 or 32 which stated that she was on active duty and falls under the UCMJ.
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I work with a retired Navy Chief who worked at Great Lakes as a company commander (drill sergeant). He told me a story of a recently graduated recruit he saw out of uniform at a mall and he called him out on it. I believe if you want to be recognized in uniform, wear it right. Don't like the uniform don't wear it if your able to wear civilian cloths. Otherwise represent your branch of service as best you can.
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I corrected a 1sgt at my job last week in Oklahoma City. His Us Army And Name tag were on the wrong sides. So I corrected him on the spot.
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PO1 (Join to see)
I think I would have been tempted to call him Mr. Army at that point....or mention that I didn't know there was a 6th branch of military
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As others have weighed in on this situation I believe the value and the morality of today’s military forces has changed; however, as a retiree we can interject and do an on the stop correction with tactic and sincerity not to loose face of the situation. Back when I was in the service we were not allowed in BDU’s out side of Garrison, Fort and/or Camp in anyone’s establishment especially stores. If you where some place you better be in Class A or B uniform and not BDU’s. I was in a situation where I did do an on the spot correction or as I put it challenge. Whomever, doing the correction must introduce themselves fully and my advice is pull out your identification not in a threatening manner but before had asked to speak to that person in private without sounding intimidating or threatening to their person. Simply, ask them to adhere to the AR 670-1 in respect of the regulation and our combat war-fighters that are gone before us. Ask them to think about their representation of the armed forces and what would their mentor say to them know. You have to get them to thinking what if someone else would have caught them what would be the consequences. If you do an on the stop correction don’t make it seem that they are degrading the uniform but remind them that its proper protocol ...Leaders Train and Re-Train, Mentor through expectations and excellences.
Well, in short the young man what attending a technical school “STAR” program in class B uniform with his head gear strap down under his belt. I asked to speak with him introduce myself and handed him my identification “Military ID” and I simply explain the situation. ALL in all he appreciate me and place his hat on his head and said HOORAH Sergeant!
Well, in short the young man what attending a technical school “STAR” program in class B uniform with his head gear strap down under his belt. I asked to speak with him introduce myself and handed him my identification “Military ID” and I simply explain the situation. ALL in all he appreciate me and place his hat on his head and said HOORAH Sergeant!
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You mentioned it to her once, your dealing directly to her has been done. Do you see that picture that you posted? Did you happen to get one of her face? Go to your base with those pictures, and show them to your CO. He will be madder than you are, and he will make sure that she get's a lesson in Military Regulations from her CO. And, if you are senior to her, make sure that you tack on "Disrespect to a Senior".
I am no longer on active duty, and I see these "Shit Birds" in public places more and more. I am totally disgusted by the actions of our younger soldiers, they have no respect for anyone, anything, or themselves. They need a lesson in having "PRIDE".
I am no longer on active duty, and I see these "Shit Birds" in public places more and more. I am totally disgusted by the actions of our younger soldiers, they have no respect for anyone, anything, or themselves. They need a lesson in having "PRIDE".
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Did it even cross your mind that you should just leave her alone? What's the big deal?? There are many people doing way worse than that girl who is wearing her uniform "out of the regulations" yet the "leadership", at its best, goes after the minor issues to micro-manage and throw their ranks around.
Now what? you gonna tell me that what I wrote is also "out of regulation"?
But wait - Before you start bashing and insulting me for posting this comment (something very regular in the military) keep in mind that you took oath to "Defend the Constitution of the United States" which guarantees my right to speech and expression.
Thank you for your service and have a great day SSG.
Now what? you gonna tell me that what I wrote is also "out of regulation"?
But wait - Before you start bashing and insulting me for posting this comment (something very regular in the military) keep in mind that you took oath to "Defend the Constitution of the United States" which guarantees my right to speech and expression.
Thank you for your service and have a great day SSG.
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PO1 (Join to see)
The big deal is that the military is not a do as you see....it is a do as you are told. And in boot camp, no matter the branch, we are taught how to wear our uniforms. It is instilled (or at least they try to instill) in us to take pride in our service in the military and to show that pride by wearing our uniforms in the proper manner and being respectful no matter the situation.
Sometimes I still feel like a civilian as i have only been in a few years, but when I see someone out of regs I think "they obviously don't care about themselves or the job they hold" and then i think "Why are they Serving if they so obviously don't care?" I mean, even before they joined, did they never care about their appearance? if they had a previous job how did they keep that if they use to dress the same at that job as they do this one?
Sometimes I still feel like a civilian as i have only been in a few years, but when I see someone out of regs I think "they obviously don't care about themselves or the job they hold" and then i think "Why are they Serving if they so obviously don't care?" I mean, even before they joined, did they never care about their appearance? if they had a previous job how did they keep that if they use to dress the same at that job as they do this one?
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Ms. Kimberly, thank you for your calm and polite response. I agree with you that military members should care about their appearance, however, there's no need to turn it into such a big deal. Look at the comments posted on this forum. I can't speak for others but I personally would not have liked my picture taken, posted on a public forum, discussed and ridiculed as if I have committed some kind of crime. People need to go beyond throwing the ranks around, making uniform corrections and genuinely show leadership skills. Compassion is one of the many leadership traits.
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PO1 (Join to see)
True, but if you think about it, the ones posted on the media cites may not have been put there by military (prior or present) it could have been a civilian who took the picture and posted it. because of the PR that the military puts out professionally, the civilians with no military knowledge have at least a general idea of what the uniform is suppose to look like. i don't know about other people, but I was raised to be aware of how my outlook of myself could be seen by others...for example: if you dont want to be treated like a child, dont act like one. Everyone who is and has been in the military has been told that we are the face of our branches and the military as a whole, we have an image to uphold whether we are having a bad day or not.
Some people are just assholes and havnt made the connection that they also have an image to uphold when making the corrections, some of them dont realize that is what they are doing. But if you taking into mind that some of the "younger generation" (i am part of that generation), even though they made it through boot camp, have to have that rank thrown in their face because they wont take a suggestion from someone of the same rank or lower thinking "why should they correct me, they are no better than me." they may see and actually respect the higher rank more and so they are more likely to respond better.
Part of showing leadership is making uniform corrections....think about it, if you owned an upscale restaurant like applebees, would you want your employees wearing shorts and mowhawks (yes i know its a bit extreme, but think about). if you want to be known for owning a nice family restaurant you do want your employees dressed like they are working at a strip joint. uniform regs and enforcing them are the same.
we are taught to learn all that we can so we can take the job of the person above us and to train those below us to eventually take our jobs....why would i want someone who can't dress appropriately to take my job?
the compassion comes in on how you relay the corrections. you dont want to come off as rude, but you also dont want to come off as a door mat. do you see what i mean?
Some people are just assholes and havnt made the connection that they also have an image to uphold when making the corrections, some of them dont realize that is what they are doing. But if you taking into mind that some of the "younger generation" (i am part of that generation), even though they made it through boot camp, have to have that rank thrown in their face because they wont take a suggestion from someone of the same rank or lower thinking "why should they correct me, they are no better than me." they may see and actually respect the higher rank more and so they are more likely to respond better.
Part of showing leadership is making uniform corrections....think about it, if you owned an upscale restaurant like applebees, would you want your employees wearing shorts and mowhawks (yes i know its a bit extreme, but think about). if you want to be known for owning a nice family restaurant you do want your employees dressed like they are working at a strip joint. uniform regs and enforcing them are the same.
we are taught to learn all that we can so we can take the job of the person above us and to train those below us to eventually take our jobs....why would i want someone who can't dress appropriately to take my job?
the compassion comes in on how you relay the corrections. you dont want to come off as rude, but you also dont want to come off as a door mat. do you see what i mean?
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I was involved in a similar-ish situation... At Buffalo Wild Wings, there were two Officers (2LT and 1LT) having some drinks in uniform watching the game. My wife and I had been there since they arrived- they hadn't eaten anything only ordered drinks. I remarked to my wife about it, but didn't do anything... Until the 1LT drunkenly walked to the latrine, and walked into the female latrine instead of the male latrine.
At that point I knew I had to say something, so when he came back I went to the table and quietly (and professionally, I was in civvies but I am only an E6) mentioned that the Officers may want to refresh themselves with AR 670-1 and when it is permitted to drink in uniform, and that having drinks in uniform and walking into the wrong gender latrine was definitely unprofessional.
When I walked away, they called the off duty cop working security over and stated I was harassing them, so I was asked to leave the restaurant for harassing "uniformed military members".
Unfortunately, if someone doesn't care- they won't care, no matter their rank, or the rank of whomever approaches them.
At that point I knew I had to say something, so when he came back I went to the table and quietly (and professionally, I was in civvies but I am only an E6) mentioned that the Officers may want to refresh themselves with AR 670-1 and when it is permitted to drink in uniform, and that having drinks in uniform and walking into the wrong gender latrine was definitely unprofessional.
When I walked away, they called the off duty cop working security over and stated I was harassing them, so I was asked to leave the restaurant for harassing "uniformed military members".
Unfortunately, if someone doesn't care- they won't care, no matter their rank, or the rank of whomever approaches them.
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SSG (Join to see)
I reported it to my MSG trying to run it up the chain the 'proper' way, but nothing was ever done about it- I doubt it got past him. I don't have the pictures of them around the table with 7-8 glasses on it anymore, but I remember who the 1LT was.
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PO1 (Join to see)
did you think about approaching the 1LT later after he sobered up? or would that be a too late kind of thing?
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SSG (Join to see)
It would have been too late- while I didn't know him at the restaurant (I asked around with his picture and got his information) he is in a unit ~2 hours away and the likelihood of seeing him again is really low.
Plus my thoughts were stopping any possible bad situations that could have arisen- bad conduct from a drunken person in public while in uniform actually the least of them.
To be fair, he was an M-Day Officer drilling on post and unfortunately, a large portion of NG Soldiers spend enough time out of uniform that their conduct reflects in uniform.
Plus my thoughts were stopping any possible bad situations that could have arisen- bad conduct from a drunken person in public while in uniform actually the least of them.
To be fair, he was an M-Day Officer drilling on post and unfortunately, a large portion of NG Soldiers spend enough time out of uniform that their conduct reflects in uniform.
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CPT (Join to see)
sorry its the new touchy feel Army, maybe she just needs a hug because it wasn't her special day
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