Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
NCO's have general military authority, a leader is a leader 24 hours a day, seven days a week, not when its convenient. The correction would be required especially in public because a Soldier is also a Soldier 24 hours a day 7 days a week. NCO's are also the keepers of the standards, and if we allow a lower standard (such as not enforcing AR 670-1) then we have just allowed a new lower standard. There is of course the importance of using tact in such a situation. Calling out the Soldier in front of this forum is a weak thing to do. Nor does it really accomplish the original intent, all it does is show this forum that the poster of this message is indecisive, and also jumps the chain. I'm sure the specialist has a supervisor, the poster should have identified the supervisor and let the supervisor take corrective action on their subordinate. Especially if the SPC disrespected the NCO poster (which is a UCMJ violation, disrespecting an NCO).
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I am sorry but the new soldiers now days don't have the respect and the honor that we had in the early 80's. The reason is the way society has changed. The soldiers are babied compared to what we went through. If it wasn't for the liberal social community our soldiers would not have the problems that they have. Do not get me wrong I am proud of my brothers and sisters that serve but I am not proud of what they get away with.
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I started reading some of the main responses above; the general consensus is that you should have hemmed her up....my response to that statistic:
ROGER THAT!
Ladies and Gentlemen...the uniforms we wear (or wore in my case) are to be worn with Honor! That means the appropriate haircuts and applicable uniform attire to fit the specific uniform code for the applicable branch of which the wearer resides.
I know there have been a lot of changes as to what uniforms can be worn out in town, whether out to dinner or to see a movie with a friend or loved one, but the changes in uniform do not change how we wear it or how we present ourselves when representing the branch of service we are in or the MILITARY in general.
My conversation with her would have been strictly in NCO fashion to ensure she was informed of her mistake, aware of my disapproval as an NCO and understanding of how uncouth her appearance was:
"...First off N.U.B. (None Useful Body) I want you to be aware that this is going to be a CHECK VALVE (One Way) conversation regarding your FUBAR (F*d Up Beyond All Recognition/Repair) appearance. You look like a SOUP SANDWICH (sloppy mess). I am not sure if you GUNDECKED (Half A$$ed) your SEABAG/RUCKSACK (Initial uniforms given in boot camp that all Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen should keep complete with the proper quantities of specified items) but the SUMMER CREASES (Some creases are here, some creases are there) you have makes it look like you pulled this uniform out of a dirty hamper that was sitting in the back of your closet for a year. Your current appearance and the fact you have apparently decided to say "F" the military, by mixing and matching your PT gear with your ACU's is beyond reproach..."
I would then turn to the immediately surrounding personnel (as you were in a mall, I am sure the Veteran to Civilian count was 6 out of every 10) and informed them of the BLUE FALCON (Someone who is out for themselves) that seemed to think that a military uniform could be mixed, matched and worn however the heck she deemed fit. I would ask would ask all Veterans to make a show of hands to better show this BAG NASTY (disgusting unappealing bag of food....similar to Soup Sandwich) the amount of personnel that have "gone before you to defend with Honor, Courage, Commitment and Integrity" and let her know that she essentially was flipping all of them the BIRD.
Congrats SPC (absolutely ZERO) WARE (withal). you have successfully screwed up my morning.
ROGER THAT!
Ladies and Gentlemen...the uniforms we wear (or wore in my case) are to be worn with Honor! That means the appropriate haircuts and applicable uniform attire to fit the specific uniform code for the applicable branch of which the wearer resides.
I know there have been a lot of changes as to what uniforms can be worn out in town, whether out to dinner or to see a movie with a friend or loved one, but the changes in uniform do not change how we wear it or how we present ourselves when representing the branch of service we are in or the MILITARY in general.
My conversation with her would have been strictly in NCO fashion to ensure she was informed of her mistake, aware of my disapproval as an NCO and understanding of how uncouth her appearance was:
"...First off N.U.B. (None Useful Body) I want you to be aware that this is going to be a CHECK VALVE (One Way) conversation regarding your FUBAR (F*d Up Beyond All Recognition/Repair) appearance. You look like a SOUP SANDWICH (sloppy mess). I am not sure if you GUNDECKED (Half A$$ed) your SEABAG/RUCKSACK (Initial uniforms given in boot camp that all Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen should keep complete with the proper quantities of specified items) but the SUMMER CREASES (Some creases are here, some creases are there) you have makes it look like you pulled this uniform out of a dirty hamper that was sitting in the back of your closet for a year. Your current appearance and the fact you have apparently decided to say "F" the military, by mixing and matching your PT gear with your ACU's is beyond reproach..."
I would then turn to the immediately surrounding personnel (as you were in a mall, I am sure the Veteran to Civilian count was 6 out of every 10) and informed them of the BLUE FALCON (Someone who is out for themselves) that seemed to think that a military uniform could be mixed, matched and worn however the heck she deemed fit. I would ask would ask all Veterans to make a show of hands to better show this BAG NASTY (disgusting unappealing bag of food....similar to Soup Sandwich) the amount of personnel that have "gone before you to defend with Honor, Courage, Commitment and Integrity" and let her know that she essentially was flipping all of them the BIRD.
Congrats SPC (absolutely ZERO) WARE (withal). you have successfully screwed up my morning.
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Although I am good and retired I still believe in good order and discipline. Not too long ago I was at a mall in Richmond and saw a few troopers ambling about with PC on, hands in pockets, and iPhone ear buds in. I pulled the senior ranking of the group aside (a SPC) and showed him my ID card and asked himself and his peers in line. He was weighing whether or not to give me attitude but when I quoted the current 670-1 and let him know I had no problem driving to Ft Lee and talking to his C of C he quickly got everyone straight.
The point is that if you don't enforce good order and discipline (on or off post and on or off duty) then you are enabling and condoning the behavior. The Army gets a bad rap for a lot of things - the least we can do as NCOs and Officers is ensure that our Soldiers are doing the right thing whether anyone is looking or not.
The point is that if you don't enforce good order and discipline (on or off post and on or off duty) then you are enabling and condoning the behavior. The Army gets a bad rap for a lot of things - the least we can do as NCOs and Officers is ensure that our Soldiers are doing the right thing whether anyone is looking or not.
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The Soldier was in the wrong and she was to be corrected NCO's lose the battle because we are 2nd guessing our selves on general authority and you have general authority on and off duty. Attitude or no attitude do not allow this type of behavior to go on it gives the uniform a bad look. Pull her to the side make your corrections and move on with your trip in the mall.
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Young soldier never be afraid to make an on the spot correction! You could even change your tone and ask what unit the soldier is in, to at least advise his/her chain of command. When any soldier or leader walks past a violation of military standards, they have just created a new standard for all to follow.
It is called an "ethical dilemma ", and it presents you with challenge of whether or not to choose the harder right, over the easier wrong. Choose the easier right, and you will never be wrong. Victory starts with you! Army Strong!
CSM Brooks
It is called an "ethical dilemma ", and it presents you with challenge of whether or not to choose the harder right, over the easier wrong. Choose the easier right, and you will never be wrong. Victory starts with you! Army Strong!
CSM Brooks
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It's always appropriate to square someone who is UNSAT. I do it all the time when any branch member comes to my place of business. I introduce myself as a former Marine and proceed to "lock them on" the correct manner of attire and how to present themselves.
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Take this jack ass aside and make the necessary correction, too many better than the SPC died wearing that uniform. How dare you dis-respect that
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Yes you should Identify yourself and give her direction on how to correct herself, she is still representing the army
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My personal opinion is that uniform regs need to be enforced at all times especially out in town. We have a responsibility to honor the respect and traditions of the uniform for any American that ever wore one in service. That being said, tact is key. The way I approach someone on base differs from the way I approach them in town. I am far more discreet when off base as people seem to jump on the defensive much quicker once they've left the gates. As far as whether they are active, guard, or reserve, I don't care. We are all charged with the same accountability to the regs.
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As an NCO that is now out of the Army, I feel like I spend the majority of my weekends making on the spot corrections to all of the national guard kids when they are in town. I don't care if its a major or minor violation, the correction needs to be made. I do try to be friendly when making initial contact and I usually end up matching my attitude with theirs, which tends to spiral out of control because they think I'm just some dumb civilian try to mess with them. I have found the people that have the hardest time being corrected by me are the lower enlisted while the senior enlisted and officers tend to be more thankful for my corrections.
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Suspended Profile
Are you still in? Did you ID yourself? That usually makes the recipient display a little less attitude. That said, I think it's good to police ourselves even if we aren't active anymore, I've done it before for soldiers loudly using profane language on a commercial airline (I was off active). If you are on some kind of duty status (active/guard/reserve) I would hope you wouldn't have walked away because of an eye roll. The first line of defense in slipping standards is the NCO corps, if you let it slide, who is going to pick up the slack?
MAJ (Join to see)
couldn't agree more. Bottom line: If you don't correct the problem then you have just set a new standard
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My opinion is that we should be proud to wear the uniform. This is what we were taught in boot camp, so I think it is only right to wear it right. She should respect the person who politely tells her to correct herself because she does not know your rank. I am sure that those watching would understand that the military is not a place for slackers. Honor, courage, commitment.
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Technically (depending on local rules and regulations as stated) This is all covered by UCMJ Articles 91 and 92. You identify yourself by name and rank (show your I.D. if need be) and go from there. I know at several installations throughout the U.S. it is a CO order to produce your military I.D. if asked.
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I wear the Uniform in Pride, because of the men and women that died in all the previous wars give me the right to defend my Country, Constitution, Flag, and Oath while wearing it. To Dishonor them and me by not complying is a violation Of the Military Code of Conduct. I would have asked her to step outside and formally discussed my rank, her appearance and her disrespect for all others that Share that Uniform and I would have put her on Report to the Military authorities, if she did not comply. Self Respect has to be foremost while wearing the Uniform of the United States Military. Appearance counts on how people think of us. SFC Daniel T. Marthers Retired.
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I would have asked her what unit she was with, , then ask to see her ID card, take a photo and give it to her chain of command ... dysfunctional idiots.
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SPC Kimberly Anne
If there was less ass kissing and more real soldiers the Rallypoint wouldn't be posting this crap. It should be a "Band of Brothers" that holds its head high with honors and the more shit you have been through, hold yours even higher, that goes for all branches of service. There is a standard and as a "volunteer" in the military you are expected to up hold that standard no matter what. If you are a scumbag and enjoy being one, then by all means get out of the service, you are not a team player. If you think combat time offers you special privilege you are wrong. There are retired soldiers that fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam that fought for their lives as well and they still maintain their standards to this day. It is an honor to up hold that standard and if it is beneath you get out! No one forced you into todays military, you joined for some reason. Someone that can’t display him/herself by the military standard can’t be trusted to uphold themselves in stressful situations, which in turn can cost lives. A commander cannot command his unit, BN, DIV, Post, if you don’t follow the standards and is a reflection of his/her abilities to command and train his/her soldiers. There are not 2 sets of standards!
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SSG Robinson,
At that point I believe that she was not going to correct herself and that's the way some Soldiers are these days. Somewhere she has a leader that is allowing her to do this on a regular basis so don't beat yourself up too bad about it. The thing for you is to instill in your Soldiers that it will be tolerated in your formation and make the correction if it does. Some Soldiers believe that since they are not engaged in the "regular hours of work 0630-1630" that they off duty. Guess what!! you are never off duty!!. Continue to make those corrections.
At that point I believe that she was not going to correct herself and that's the way some Soldiers are these days. Somewhere she has a leader that is allowing her to do this on a regular basis so don't beat yourself up too bad about it. The thing for you is to instill in your Soldiers that it will be tolerated in your formation and make the correction if it does. Some Soldiers believe that since they are not engaged in the "regular hours of work 0630-1630" that they off duty. Guess what!! you are never off duty!!. Continue to make those corrections.
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I would have offered her the opportunity to excuse herself to the ladies room in order to fix her appearance. If she declined, I would have detained her. Called her First Sergeant. Informed him/her about the appearance of his/her soldier. I would inform the First Sergeant and recommend charges be filed under Article 92 and 134. Maybe this SPC is a screw up and one more strike and she is out. Maybe she is just having a bad day. Not my concern. My creed dictates, "I will exert every effort and risk any ridicule to successfully accomplish my assigned duties." An NCO's duty is to enforce standards and discipline!
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Plain and simple, regardless of your rank or theirs, you should always make the correction in a tactful manner.
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