Posted on Dec 14, 2024
How can I pursue an exception to policy to avoid separation from the USAR for not yet having completed AIT before 24 months TIS?
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Good day all!
This is partially a follow up on my previous post. Quick background- am a current drilling reservist with 22months TIS, I enlisted as a 09R (SMP Cadet) but did not end up contracting ROTC and have been trying to get sent to AIT for 38B (Civil Affairs) since February 2024. I have completed BCT, no discipline whatsoever, green on attendance to BA etc.
I received a call regarding my attempt to get into AIT, while they managed to sort out the issues I was having, unfortunately the next class start date is past my 24months TIS mark. I was told that without an ETP signed by the Secretary of the Army my unit will be forced to give me an entry level separation. Even if the paperwork for that separation takes a few months I will still have to separate then re-enlist. Unless my unit can somehow get the ETP signed by Early February (I doubt it but I did reach out to my congressional office to see if their any chance they can try to get it expedited)
If anyone has any comments/advice about getting that ETP please feel free to leave them but my main questions regard re-enlisting after getting separated. I reached out a local recruiter and got "It depends" or "I'll look into it" as an answer to all of these-
Will I keep my previous TIS/Rank?
Will I keep my previous Awards?
Is my ELS dishonorable/other than honorable?
Is their anything I should know about re-enlisting after getting an ELS?
Negatives of an ELS for future federal jobs? (even if I re-enlist after)
This is partially a follow up on my previous post. Quick background- am a current drilling reservist with 22months TIS, I enlisted as a 09R (SMP Cadet) but did not end up contracting ROTC and have been trying to get sent to AIT for 38B (Civil Affairs) since February 2024. I have completed BCT, no discipline whatsoever, green on attendance to BA etc.
I received a call regarding my attempt to get into AIT, while they managed to sort out the issues I was having, unfortunately the next class start date is past my 24months TIS mark. I was told that without an ETP signed by the Secretary of the Army my unit will be forced to give me an entry level separation. Even if the paperwork for that separation takes a few months I will still have to separate then re-enlist. Unless my unit can somehow get the ETP signed by Early February (I doubt it but I did reach out to my congressional office to see if their any chance they can try to get it expedited)
If anyone has any comments/advice about getting that ETP please feel free to leave them but my main questions regard re-enlisting after getting separated. I reached out a local recruiter and got "It depends" or "I'll look into it" as an answer to all of these-
Will I keep my previous TIS/Rank?
Will I keep my previous Awards?
Is my ELS dishonorable/other than honorable?
Is their anything I should know about re-enlisting after getting an ELS?
Negatives of an ELS for future federal jobs? (even if I re-enlist after)
Posted 7 mo ago
Responses: 6
You want in? Then stop being like a horse with blinders on. I have been there. I fully understand your problem as I had problems enlisting, but I took what was available to me at the time, did that MOS for 2yrs, then moved to where I wanted to be. If you really want to serve, then sometimes you got to bend with the wind or you will get snapped off. Where there is a will, there is a way. You need to keep your eye on the prize, don't get stuck on the "I wants".
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PFC (Join to see), after reading through the comments and amplifying information you provided, I figured I’d give you ground truth on some of the aspects of your situation. Keep in mind that the basis behind your separation for not completing IET within 24 months is something stipulated by law (10 USC § 10105, Section 1115(c)(1))*.
First and foremost - you aren't going to get an exception (or rather, the likelihood is extremely low). If you can show that there was a gross injustice done to you, or some other mitigating circumstance that impacted on your not being able to complete your training within the 24 month requirement (e.g., showing that you were the victim of misconduct and someone was deliberately preventing you from being trained; etc.), it might be an outside possibility, but not in the situation as you described.
If you're still in your entry-level status, then you'll receive an Entry-Level Separation (ELS) unless you are being separated for something other than minor misconduct or unsatisfactory performance (AR 135-178*, 8-1a). For a reserve component Soldier, your entry-level status doesn’t end until 365 days after starting ADT for your IET. If your IET is split into two or more ADT periods, then your entry-level status will end 180 days after starting your second ADT period. As you stated you still haven't started AIT, you're still in an entry-level status.
There is no characterization to an ELS (AR 135-178*, 8-3). Although it is possible to be separated during your entry-level status and receive a characterization for your service (normally negative), you wouldn't receive an ELS and would be separated under the appropriate chapter (i.e., serious misconduct, criminal conviction, etc.). In other terms you can think of your service as being unofficially characterized as “other than dishonorable”.
Your time in the USAR will still count and if you reenlist it will be used as creditable time when things such as your PEBD are recalculated. Your service for an ELS may be uncharacterized, but an ELS doesn’t mean your service doesn’t count. In the world of recruiting, you are categorized as a “glossary non-prior service” individual (prior military service but doesn't meet the classification of "Prior Service").
Having an ELS doesn’t prevent you from reenlisting, but an ELS discharge will be given a reentry code of RE-3. If you have an ELS, you will be prohibited from reenlisting in the Army for six months (from the date of discharge) and you’ll require a waiver approved by the CG, USAREC (RA or USAR) or the Director, ARNG (AR 601-210*, 4-13b(3), which is likely why the recruiters have been non-committal.
You will still be the grade you are separated at, but keep in mind if you reenlist, you’ll go through a grade determination according to AR 601-210 and USAREC Reg 601-210. That means you might not be reenlisted at the grade you separated at, or if you are, the date of rank may be adjusted to the date of enlistment.
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* 10 USC 10105 (Army National Guard of the United States: composition) https://law.justia.com/codes/us/1998/title10/subtitlee/parti/chap1003/sec10105/ - note: Despite the name, it does apply to the USAR (the 1996 NDAA changed the language from “National Guard” to “Selected Reserve”)
* AR 135-178 (ARNG and USAR Enlisted Administrative Separations) - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN37322-AR_135-178-000-WEB-1.pdf
* AR 601-210 (Active and Reserve Components Enlistment Program) - https://api.army.mil/e2/c/downloads/344222.pdf
First and foremost - you aren't going to get an exception (or rather, the likelihood is extremely low). If you can show that there was a gross injustice done to you, or some other mitigating circumstance that impacted on your not being able to complete your training within the 24 month requirement (e.g., showing that you were the victim of misconduct and someone was deliberately preventing you from being trained; etc.), it might be an outside possibility, but not in the situation as you described.
If you're still in your entry-level status, then you'll receive an Entry-Level Separation (ELS) unless you are being separated for something other than minor misconduct or unsatisfactory performance (AR 135-178*, 8-1a). For a reserve component Soldier, your entry-level status doesn’t end until 365 days after starting ADT for your IET. If your IET is split into two or more ADT periods, then your entry-level status will end 180 days after starting your second ADT period. As you stated you still haven't started AIT, you're still in an entry-level status.
There is no characterization to an ELS (AR 135-178*, 8-3). Although it is possible to be separated during your entry-level status and receive a characterization for your service (normally negative), you wouldn't receive an ELS and would be separated under the appropriate chapter (i.e., serious misconduct, criminal conviction, etc.). In other terms you can think of your service as being unofficially characterized as “other than dishonorable”.
Your time in the USAR will still count and if you reenlist it will be used as creditable time when things such as your PEBD are recalculated. Your service for an ELS may be uncharacterized, but an ELS doesn’t mean your service doesn’t count. In the world of recruiting, you are categorized as a “glossary non-prior service” individual (prior military service but doesn't meet the classification of "Prior Service").
Having an ELS doesn’t prevent you from reenlisting, but an ELS discharge will be given a reentry code of RE-3. If you have an ELS, you will be prohibited from reenlisting in the Army for six months (from the date of discharge) and you’ll require a waiver approved by the CG, USAREC (RA or USAR) or the Director, ARNG (AR 601-210*, 4-13b(3), which is likely why the recruiters have been non-committal.
You will still be the grade you are separated at, but keep in mind if you reenlist, you’ll go through a grade determination according to AR 601-210 and USAREC Reg 601-210. That means you might not be reenlisted at the grade you separated at, or if you are, the date of rank may be adjusted to the date of enlistment.
--------------------------------
* 10 USC 10105 (Army National Guard of the United States: composition) https://law.justia.com/codes/us/1998/title10/subtitlee/parti/chap1003/sec10105/ - note: Despite the name, it does apply to the USAR (the 1996 NDAA changed the language from “National Guard” to “Selected Reserve”)
* AR 135-178 (ARNG and USAR Enlisted Administrative Separations) - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN37322-AR_135-178-000-WEB-1.pdf
* AR 601-210 (Active and Reserve Components Enlistment Program) - https://api.army.mil/e2/c/downloads/344222.pdf
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SP5 John Brown
I have found that Col. Cudworth . for a long time now, has been a Universe of Knowledge. Kudos, to him.
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Here is my recommendation:
If you want to stay in and NOT receive the ELS, then I strongly suggest you pick an MOS that you can attend AIT NOW and then down the road somewhere you submit to reclass to CA. This is the fastest and least hassle filled fix you can get.
If you want to stay in and NOT receive the ELS, then I strongly suggest you pick an MOS that you can attend AIT NOW and then down the road somewhere you submit to reclass to CA. This is the fastest and least hassle filled fix you can get.
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PFC (Join to see)
Based on what I was told, at this point in time there is no AIT I could attend and graduate by my 24month TIS mark.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
PFC (Join to see) - If they allow you into AIT and you start it, I would be surprised if they still separated you.
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MSG (Join to see)
PFC (Join to see) - then, your only courses of action I can see is you go AD now or get out, take your chances to try to re-enlist with the ELS. If you do get an ELS, chances are that'd be an OTH, which would probably give you an RE Code of 2 or 3 (you may need a waiver).
As for your awards, they're yours to keep. Whether you go Active or have to get out THEN come back in, your TIS stays for Pay purposes only; everything else gets recalculated.
As for your awards, they're yours to keep. Whether you go Active or have to get out THEN come back in, your TIS stays for Pay purposes only; everything else gets recalculated.
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LTC Stephen B.
MSG (Join to see) - MSG - I'm just curious here about the OTH discharge instead of administrative/general discharge. I haven't seen the previous post and comments, but my understanding, generally speaking, is if there weren't behavioral issues a general discharge is usually given, especially if the USAR sees value in recycling the soldier. Or are you just lumping in all general and admin discharges as OTH?
Thanks!
from the interwebs:
Entry-Level Separation from the Army
An administrative board reviews all cases and recommends the ELS or a discharge with honorable or general conditions.
Thanks!
from the interwebs:
Entry-Level Separation from the Army
An administrative board reviews all cases and recommends the ELS or a discharge with honorable or general conditions.
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You are only a PFC and sound young; this is recoverable. I made several bad decisions while enlisted, one good decision (my career field), and I retired three years ago. If this is what you want, stay focused and make it happen.
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Your ELS will not be dishonorable. It will be "Other than" however.
You're basically not getting an ETP memo from the Sec Army for a PFC trying to get an extension for a desired AIT. She'd have to be your aunt (but then you'd have been an officer anyway). You can pick up any Quartermaster school date right now before 24 months.
Ironically, if you graduated college then you'll get back in as a SPC/E4.
The amount of desperation there is among recruiting in the USAR ranks I foresee enlisting being a relatively easy task.
************
Now, what all the other readers are very curious about:
1) Why did 22+ months pass by after you were passed over for commission before your chain of command could get you an AIT school date. That was my Brigade Commander's #1 priority (even above medical readiness). Absolutely everyone on the books needs to be MOS qualified. We can work around medical readiness and fitness, but non MOS qualified is a dead stop no-go. There is no waiver to deploy non MOSQ soldiers.
2) Then I wonder to a lesser degree, becoming a USAR officer has never been easier. How could you not get selected for a TPU (monthly drilling) 2LT slot?
Did you pass up in other opportunities presented to you? This going on this long without an AIT school date is a major fail somewhere.
There are 22 times more Quartermaster slots for E3/E4 than there are for 38B (and this might be something interesting, all the 38B vacancies are E4+ and you're a E3). Then additionally, a USAR unit taking a new soldier needs to be within the commuting distance of the applying soldier's home of record. Otherwise, that too needs a commander's waiver memo (I've signed enough of them myself).
I can see barriers of entry to 38B, but it's highly likely something was available in the 22 months that passed to get you MOSQ. What gives?
So...................... if you want back in.............. it's probably going to be among the paths already presented to you previously to say in.
***************
You'll have an Other Than Honorable DD214 looming over your head.
The quickest way to clear that up is an active duty enlistment and knock out 3 years. Reserve will be 6+ years.
Better be quick about it while your Basic Training Certificate is still valid.
So that's the larger life question. Eat the other than honorable the rest of your life or do what is needed to erase it.
You're basically not getting an ETP memo from the Sec Army for a PFC trying to get an extension for a desired AIT. She'd have to be your aunt (but then you'd have been an officer anyway). You can pick up any Quartermaster school date right now before 24 months.
Ironically, if you graduated college then you'll get back in as a SPC/E4.
The amount of desperation there is among recruiting in the USAR ranks I foresee enlisting being a relatively easy task.
************
Now, what all the other readers are very curious about:
1) Why did 22+ months pass by after you were passed over for commission before your chain of command could get you an AIT school date. That was my Brigade Commander's #1 priority (even above medical readiness). Absolutely everyone on the books needs to be MOS qualified. We can work around medical readiness and fitness, but non MOS qualified is a dead stop no-go. There is no waiver to deploy non MOSQ soldiers.
2) Then I wonder to a lesser degree, becoming a USAR officer has never been easier. How could you not get selected for a TPU (monthly drilling) 2LT slot?
Did you pass up in other opportunities presented to you? This going on this long without an AIT school date is a major fail somewhere.
There are 22 times more Quartermaster slots for E3/E4 than there are for 38B (and this might be something interesting, all the 38B vacancies are E4+ and you're a E3). Then additionally, a USAR unit taking a new soldier needs to be within the commuting distance of the applying soldier's home of record. Otherwise, that too needs a commander's waiver memo (I've signed enough of them myself).
I can see barriers of entry to 38B, but it's highly likely something was available in the 22 months that passed to get you MOSQ. What gives?
So...................... if you want back in.............. it's probably going to be among the paths already presented to you previously to say in.
***************
You'll have an Other Than Honorable DD214 looming over your head.
The quickest way to clear that up is an active duty enlistment and knock out 3 years. Reserve will be 6+ years.
Better be quick about it while your Basic Training Certificate is still valid.
So that's the larger life question. Eat the other than honorable the rest of your life or do what is needed to erase it.
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PFC (Join to see)
Thank you for the reply! I do not have a bachelors, I am close to having one. If I could commission with an associates (which I have had) I would be open to doing that as I work on my bachelors.
I have an acceptance letter from the CA unit, the problems arose that I was somehow marked as a contracted cadet. I was told because of that I was green on the books, from my understanding. I have no desire to do any other job in the reserves right now other then Civil Affairs or counterintel. I had no opportunities presented to me just a call this Friday telling me I’d be getting an ELS or somehow need to get an ETP, and I only got that answer because I filed a congressional.
Pretty much everyone I’ve talked too said my command, tradoc and cadet command dropped the ball.
I have an acceptance letter from the CA unit, the problems arose that I was somehow marked as a contracted cadet. I was told because of that I was green on the books, from my understanding. I have no desire to do any other job in the reserves right now other then Civil Affairs or counterintel. I had no opportunities presented to me just a call this Friday telling me I’d be getting an ELS or somehow need to get an ETP, and I only got that answer because I filed a congressional.
Pretty much everyone I’ve talked too said my command, tradoc and cadet command dropped the ball.
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PFC (Join to see)
Good evening sir, I reformatted my reply to match yours in order and provide additional information-
I enlisted Feb 2023, completed BCT Late August 2023, then tried to go to the ROTC program at the university that accepted me. After trying to work with them to get into classes Spring or Fall 2025 I was informed I had too many college credits and could not contract with them. After talking to a career counselor and NCO’s in my unit I decided to start trying to reclass to 38B(Feb 2024). I got accepted into a unit and tried to get sent to AIT by the unit, who then said MEPS has to send me. MEPS told me it was the unit and then eventually I got told I need Disenrollment paperwork from the ROTC program since I am marked as enrolled/contracted somewhere, which is also why I appeared green on my unit roster. ROTC said they can’t disenroll me because I was never enrolled but sent a LOA stating I was never enrolled. That went back and forth for a while and I eventually filed a congressional, 30 days went by and I reached out to my congressman, got told it could take another 60 days. This friday (Dec 13) I get a call from a MSG telling me they got my inquiry and they informed me that there’s no way for me to attend any AIT in time since my 24 month mark is so close, unless I get an ETP and that would have to be signed by the Sec Army. I was told it has been done before.
I only have my associates currently, I am working towards a Bachelors. I would 100% be willing to commission if possible with just an associates, but on the enlisted side I am only really interested in Civil Affairs.
I did not pass up any opportunities to attend AIT for CA, from the way the MSG made it sound, there is no way for me to attend AIT w/out an ETP at this point in time since I would not finish AIT in time.
With the other than honorable, upon my re-enlistment is that removed or will I have to get another discharge to get that removed?
When does my BCT Certificate Expire?
Do I keep my TIS/Awards?
Thank you!
I enlisted Feb 2023, completed BCT Late August 2023, then tried to go to the ROTC program at the university that accepted me. After trying to work with them to get into classes Spring or Fall 2025 I was informed I had too many college credits and could not contract with them. After talking to a career counselor and NCO’s in my unit I decided to start trying to reclass to 38B(Feb 2024). I got accepted into a unit and tried to get sent to AIT by the unit, who then said MEPS has to send me. MEPS told me it was the unit and then eventually I got told I need Disenrollment paperwork from the ROTC program since I am marked as enrolled/contracted somewhere, which is also why I appeared green on my unit roster. ROTC said they can’t disenroll me because I was never enrolled but sent a LOA stating I was never enrolled. That went back and forth for a while and I eventually filed a congressional, 30 days went by and I reached out to my congressman, got told it could take another 60 days. This friday (Dec 13) I get a call from a MSG telling me they got my inquiry and they informed me that there’s no way for me to attend any AIT in time since my 24 month mark is so close, unless I get an ETP and that would have to be signed by the Sec Army. I was told it has been done before.
I only have my associates currently, I am working towards a Bachelors. I would 100% be willing to commission if possible with just an associates, but on the enlisted side I am only really interested in Civil Affairs.
I did not pass up any opportunities to attend AIT for CA, from the way the MSG made it sound, there is no way for me to attend AIT w/out an ETP at this point in time since I would not finish AIT in time.
With the other than honorable, upon my re-enlistment is that removed or will I have to get another discharge to get that removed?
When does my BCT Certificate Expire?
Do I keep my TIS/Awards?
Thank you!
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CPT (Join to see)
PFC (Join to see) - At this point I'd say the primary focus is finishing the Bachelor Degree. What may or may not come of military service in the future will just work itself out.
I completely believe the army dropping the ball all over the place, but getting a degree completed is totally on the soldier.
Having a degree done would have opened up so many other opportunities for recruiters, and retention.
The NG has programs for AA degrees towards a Bachelor in process, but that is state dependent, and that is probably MOS dependent too.
Not having a 4yr degree, not wanting to do anything else in the USAR other than CA narrowed the possible avenues of fixing this too much.
***************
I have to believe there is someone in the USAR wanting to fix this and keep you on the books. The USAR is keeping too many less than standard soldiers who continue to not perform anyway.
Once you walk out that door and discharged and once you get a degree in hand you can walk back into any recruiters' office for any service and probably start from scratch on your terms. Or not........... the world is full of ROTC cadets that didn't commission and moved on in life just fine.
I'm just surprised the USAR is letting a soldier who otherwise is showing they want to stay in actually stay in.
***********
"Congressional" is too high up the chain. It's not the magic solution everyone thinks it is.
For future reference, PFC's should go to the Inspector General (IG), or their company commanders, or BN and BDE commanders. Those levels of resolution are much closer to the people who would actually do the things to correct the problem.
Going to a congressman just tries to get a fix too high up the chain.
What I'm getting a there is probably going to be a 1-Star in the USAR that is going to get your separation packet, and that SAME 1-Star would have been the best place to have the issue at hand presented to him from below him within his own IG office than being pushed down from above him from a congressional he now has to be much more sensitive about handling.
I completely believe the army dropping the ball all over the place, but getting a degree completed is totally on the soldier.
Having a degree done would have opened up so many other opportunities for recruiters, and retention.
The NG has programs for AA degrees towards a Bachelor in process, but that is state dependent, and that is probably MOS dependent too.
Not having a 4yr degree, not wanting to do anything else in the USAR other than CA narrowed the possible avenues of fixing this too much.
***************
I have to believe there is someone in the USAR wanting to fix this and keep you on the books. The USAR is keeping too many less than standard soldiers who continue to not perform anyway.
Once you walk out that door and discharged and once you get a degree in hand you can walk back into any recruiters' office for any service and probably start from scratch on your terms. Or not........... the world is full of ROTC cadets that didn't commission and moved on in life just fine.
I'm just surprised the USAR is letting a soldier who otherwise is showing they want to stay in actually stay in.
***********
"Congressional" is too high up the chain. It's not the magic solution everyone thinks it is.
For future reference, PFC's should go to the Inspector General (IG), or their company commanders, or BN and BDE commanders. Those levels of resolution are much closer to the people who would actually do the things to correct the problem.
Going to a congressman just tries to get a fix too high up the chain.
What I'm getting a there is probably going to be a 1-Star in the USAR that is going to get your separation packet, and that SAME 1-Star would have been the best place to have the issue at hand presented to him from below him within his own IG office than being pushed down from above him from a congressional he now has to be much more sensitive about handling.
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Have you talked with your CO , to see if you could get a wavier?
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