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I have been dealing with this a lot. I have seen both ways. As per AR 600–25 the junior person should salute. I see a 1LT senior to a 2LT and I salute them. I have seen many instances where this does not happen. Most see a LT as a LT regardless of being a 1st or 2nd. How do you all feel about this?
"B. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States..."
"B. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States..."
Officers
Customs and Courtesies
Army
Saluting
AR 600-25
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 1296
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It is a show of respect for rank no matter what service. All shall abide by the rules and regulations and, above all, show some good discipline with proper customs and courtesies. They don't have to respect the person, but respect the rank at least. If they didn't want to show customs and courtesies then shouldn't have joined the military.
Just my 2 cents.
OOHRAH, Sir!
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CW3 (Join to see)
Gunny the so-called 'tradition' of 2LTs not saluting 1LTs is an Army thing. They don't do that in the Corps, do they?
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Capt Jeff S.
If it's just the LT's, you probably won't see the 2LT salute the 1LT, unless the 1LT's billet is senior (ex. the 2LT is a PLT CDR and the 1LT is his CO CDR... but figure the odds of that happening.) If a 2LT salutes the 1LT and there's troops around, the 1LT should return it. You'll probably not see a 1LT chew a 2LT for not saluting him. I really never thought this to be such a big deal and can't imagine why we're discussing this AGAIN!!!
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So have any NCOs ever heard any of your Soldiers question why a 2LT not salute 1LT?
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CW3 (Join to see)
A 2LT not saluting a 1LT is the furthest thing on a young Soldiers mind. When I was a PV2-SPC I surely didn't notice it. I noticed more the BC calling the junior officers by their first name. Ifs its "customary" for LTs not to salute each other, so be it. I've seen CSMs call each other by their first name in front of a formation, some customs just develop over time i.e. LTs not saluting, same can be said for us Warrants.
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This Thread is showing the grave difference in NCO's and Officers. Obviously this isn't across the board and there are Officers who always do the right thing and NCO's who don't, but NCO's are expected to enforce ALL standards. So when soldiers cross the line we fix them because that's what the Regulations tell us to enforce. CHAIN OF COMMAND has implemented these Rules and Regulations. 4 Stars, SecDef etc. So who are we to NOT do whats right? Why do Senior Enlisted and Officers think it's ok to not salute, or to put their hands in their pockets? I don't agree with the outdated Regulations but when I don't enforce one why the other? My job isn't to take it upon myself and decide which ones are important and which ones are not and neither is it anyone's job here.<br>
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CW4 Juan Morales
The flip side of that was a CSM I knew a few years ago, who expected an "At Ease" from the SDO when he walked into BN HQ. The CW2 SDO, a former SSG, sent the SDNCO and runner to chow. The conversation that followed was professional and good for both of them. That CSM was a good guy, but it's not like he called the room to attention whenever an LT walked in. That used to be a rule too.
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CW4 Juan Morales
For the record, I try to police up my fellow warrants, and the one time CSM Harris caught me with my pants unbloused after a flight, I replied the only way i should. I thanked him for pointing it out and fixed it on the spot.
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CWO2 Richard Rose
As a Chief Petty I enforced rules and regulations. As a Chief Petty Officer it was my job to correct infractions, etc. I was on a major defense department staff in DC. I got a call from an Army SGM in the command center. The problem was that the newly reported Chief was upsetting troops by correcting the conduct and uniform issues to mentioning other things. I told the SGM that the Chief doing what all CPOs were expected to. Being a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy is not just a pay grade. Officers drive the ships and the Chiefs do the rest as well as train junior officers. I felt and still feel the chain of command was to be respected religiously. Saluting to me never bothered me. The ones that were lax in rendering proper military courtesy was USAF NCOs. Bottom line: the only time a salute hurt anyone in a war zone.
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CWO2 Richard Rose
CW4 Juan Morales
As a Navy CWO2 I would fully expect a CMC to treat me with respect. As a commissioned warrant officer I often had more time in service than many E-9s. Navy CWOs aren't eligible for the program until minimum time in service 12 years and a Chief Petty Officer in grades E-7 / E-8 / E-9. CWO2 to CWO4 major difference was the CWO4 made more money.
As a Navy CWO2 I would fully expect a CMC to treat me with respect. As a commissioned warrant officer I often had more time in service than many E-9s. Navy CWOs aren't eligible for the program until minimum time in service 12 years and a Chief Petty Officer in grades E-7 / E-8 / E-9. CWO2 to CWO4 major difference was the CWO4 made more money.
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Chalk it up to a 2LT being an noob and an idiot or colorblind between silver/gold (situational idiot, not a permanent condition) ... obviously a LTC salutes a COL, any 2LT should know well and full that they ought to salute a 1LT. 2LTs are worrying about which foot to step off with most of the time (I know I was, as a cadet and 2LT) and aren't comfortable enough with their rank to know what to do with it.
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CPT Ray Doeksen
http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123204054
This article says it all in a very articulate manner. I would never have expected this to be such a long-lived discussion, or one where so many people fail to see both the gravity (show military courtesy, because ... it is what you ought to do!) and the levity (2LTs are bound to make mistakes, and one of them is thinking that 1LTs are already seasoned officers.)
I often have the privilege of talking to groups of young officers and enlisted on a broad range of subjects. The one question I get most often is, "What is the key to a successful Air Force career?" T...
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2LT = gold bar; 1LT = silver bar. MAJ = gold leaf; LTC = silver leaf. No matter how senior a 2LT is or how junior a 1LT is, he always outranks the 2LT. It took me a while as a 2LT to get used to a CW4 saluting me. . .
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The Army has many traditions that many of you NCOs follow that are really out of regulations. If you really want to follow customs and courtesies, then you should never call a First Sergeant, "Top:" any NCO "Sarge:," Command Sergeant Major, "Sergeant Major;" or Lieutenant Colonel, "Colonel." There are several holding the rank of Staff Sergeant and Sergeant First Class who have participated in this discussion who are called "Sergeant" by their subordinates. Do you correct them and tell them to address you by your proper rank? Better yet, do you correct your superiors when they call you "Sergeant?" I doubt it.
I've served several different Battalion and Brigade Commanders who normally addressed their subordinate officers by their first names, unless they were mad at them for something.
I grew up in the Army as my father made it a career and I served 25 years. It was very rare during my lifetime I saw a 2LT salute a 1LT. Those rare times I did see it occur, the 1LT receiving the salute either laughed it off or told the 2LT not to do it again. I never had a situation where the morale and good order was ever disrupted because a 2LT didn't salute a 1LT.
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CPT Aaron Kletzing
Great points, Gary. Well said all around. One of the really solid answers thus far on this issue. Keep up the great work and thanks for your service!
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MSG (Join to see)
I agree with the majority of this post except for the fact that "Sergeant" is an acceptable term by doctrine when referring to a Sergeant through Master Sergeant.
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Yes. The answer is yes, you should. Behind closed doors you can call each other by your first name all you want, but in public be sure to drop the "sir/ma'am" and render a salute. Lead by example.<div><br></div><div>Having been an officer, I understand the opposing view: a 2LT is promoted to 1LT simply by staying alive and not doing anything illegal so what's the real difference? This does diminish the rank of 1LT (as it compares to the previous rank), but does it do so anymore than the rest of the officer ranks? When I was in, 2006-2011, promotion was essentially automatic from 2LT to MAJ (even MAJ to LTC promotion rates were in the 90% range). As long as you didn't do something illegal, you made Captain, then Major...and if you were even semi competent, you made LTC. Try not saluting someone O-3 to O-5 just because they automatically made promotion. </div><div><br></div><div>I hear things are changing however and promotion is now much harder (which I applaud). </div>
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Without a doubt the 2LT should ALWAYS salute the 1LT while in uniform. It seems to be forgotten that saluting is a privilege and an honor. Has our Army fallen into such disarray that we have forgotten the most basic and fundamental Customs and Courtesies that are supposed to drive the discipline within the Army? Furthermore Sir, if you witness another 2LT not saluting a 1LT you really should square your peer away.
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I am guilty. I used to salute 1LTs when I was newly commissioned, but when the only thing separating you from who you work with as peers is a few months (the promotion to 1LT is ALL time in grade) it begins to seem silly. Behind closed doors, I never allow my 2LT PLs (I am XO at this point) call me Sir. It is Tim. <br>
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CPT Ray Doeksen
Tim, behind closed doors is another matter, you're right. If you have an understanding, or a "once a day, unless we're in front of troops" rule, that can be fine. It is normal for officers to dispense with some repetitive formalities when not in the presence of junior enlisted.
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LTC (Join to see)
As you should have! That was the right thing to do. If, behind closed doors, you had a casual relationship…so be it. BUT - in front of Soldiers…you do the right thing!
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