Posted on Nov 23, 2013
Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?
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With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate <span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 15px; white-space: nowrap;">degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?</span>
Education
College
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 176
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Oh Hell No! <div><br></div><div>We need NCO's with backbone and common sense. We have too many "toadies" practicing reflective belt leadership worrying about their next assignment instead of taking care of Joes and insuring that we have a combat ready force. </div><div><br></div><div>The business of the Army is controlled application of violence. Not getting ready for your civilian career, bitching about soldiers with their hands in their pockets when its 20 degrees out, or patting soldiers on the back calling them "warriors" when they unfit and can't fight their way out of a paper bag. </div><div><br></div><div>A E-9 should be a tough, combat-experianced, mean SOB who instills respect and a little bit of fear. The ideal SGM should literally have common sense coming out his pores. SGM Don Purdy (ret.) is good example! Sadly I see allot of weakness in today's SGMs.</div>
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Brown,
Have you considered "aggressively pursuing" training soldiers to do their job? Or better preparing yourself to lead your men to fight and win in combat?
We are still at war and will be for the continuing future. If not radical Islam, then perhaps the Chinese or some other foe. Bottom line it is our job as leaders to ensure our soldiers win the next fight with the minimum of losses.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Ross
I aggressively lead my Soldiers and train them to be proficient in all aspects of being a Soldier. I also believe in setting Soldiers up for success. There is nothing wrong with having a degree. There is such a thing called multi tasking which I instill in my Soldiers.
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SGT(P) Kenneth Jones
with these comments is why the army wants to lean to a smarter army cause when an 11B gets out whats he going to do shoot pop cans. With out education he wont be able to run automation systems in almost every factory cause it doesnt jave a magazine or trigger. what about whwn you kids ask if you can help with hos trig what are you going to say get a tutor or go ask your mom. Really cant see what it is going to hurt to use your spare time instead of slammin a six pack of bud slam a six page report.
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No.<br><br>I would like to know how a four year degree in a civilian
field such as Liberal Arts or English prepares a Senior NCO to manage a
unit. This would be nothing more than an arbitrary requirement put forth
by individuals who already have a degree to take the focus off of
actual military experience and shift it to something irrelevant.<br><br>Succeeding in the scholastic environment does not mean that you are fit to be a leader. It should not be used as a measuring tool to put you ahead of your peers simply because they focused their time and energy more on soldier skills while you had the free time to take college courses.<br><br>Earning your degree is great and I support it. It makes you more relevant in the civilian field when you transition out of the army. I do not agree with or condone any practice of requiring a degree to be a senior NCO though.<br>
field such as Liberal Arts or English prepares a Senior NCO to manage a
unit. This would be nothing more than an arbitrary requirement put forth
by individuals who already have a degree to take the focus off of
actual military experience and shift it to something irrelevant.<br><br>Succeeding in the scholastic environment does not mean that you are fit to be a leader. It should not be used as a measuring tool to put you ahead of your peers simply because they focused their time and energy more on soldier skills while you had the free time to take college courses.<br><br>Earning your degree is great and I support it. It makes you more relevant in the civilian field when you transition out of the army. I do not agree with or condone any practice of requiring a degree to be a senior NCO though.<br>
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SGM (Join to see)
SSG Stingo great point. I have a BS in business and am pursuing an interior design degree. Have either of them helped me be a better leader....no. I mean, don't get me wrong, the interior design courses have helped me lay out my COF and chose complementing colors for company t-shirts....jokes aside, I have pursued my degrees for my life out of the Army.
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MSG(P) Quick,
Given the nature of the modern armed forces, I believe that it should be a requirement for promotion to Master Sergeant for an associates degree and a bachelors degree for promotion to Sergeant Major. However, these should be in the form of institutional schooling, such as the kind that field grade and flag officers receive. Given that self development is absolutely critical, I also acknowledge that in some jobs, in some fields, not everyone has the time to get their associates and/or bachelors degree in their free time, depending on their rate of promotion.
As such, the First Sergeants Academy should be an associate degree producing course as a minimum, preferably a bachelors degree at some point and the Sergeant's Major Academy should be accredited for graduates to receive a bachelors degree at a minimum, then eventually a Master's Degree once all of the kinks have been worked out.
Given the nature of the modern armed forces, I believe that it should be a requirement for promotion to Master Sergeant for an associates degree and a bachelors degree for promotion to Sergeant Major. However, these should be in the form of institutional schooling, such as the kind that field grade and flag officers receive. Given that self development is absolutely critical, I also acknowledge that in some jobs, in some fields, not everyone has the time to get their associates and/or bachelors degree in their free time, depending on their rate of promotion.
As such, the First Sergeants Academy should be an associate degree producing course as a minimum, preferably a bachelors degree at some point and the Sergeant's Major Academy should be accredited for graduates to receive a bachelors degree at a minimum, then eventually a Master's Degree once all of the kinks have been worked out.
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SGM Matthew Quick
SFC Fox,
Also, the Sergeants Major Course is now 10-months in length.
Not to compare enlisted to officers, but the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College grants the
Master of Military Art and Science (MMAS) degree based upon the candidate’s successful completion of the Command and General Staff School Intermediate Level Education course.Also, the Sergeants Major Course is now 10-months in length.
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SGT Thomas Sullivan
I agree with MSG Q, Captains and majors start getting free college credit giving education from military schooling they receive, I see no reason our senior NCO's shouldn't be receiving the same treatment. This goes for warrant officers also.
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No way. I knew an E-9 with a Ph.D., and he was useless. It's about leadership, not book knowlege.<br>
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I didn't start on my degree until retirement, it may have hindered me, but with the optempo I was involved in over most of my career, not sure I ever really had the time, or it might have taken me over 10 years to complete that 4 year degree. Retrospect, wish I had done it sooner though.
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CSM Mike Maynard
Took me about 10 yrs to get my Bachelors and about another 10 yrs to get my Masters. Little bites at a time.
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SGM Matthew Quick
Earning a college degree takes an enormous amount of personal time and sacrifice...we sacrifice for our Soldiers all the time and eventually put ourselves behind our peers/officer counterparts for post-military employment opportunities.
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TSgt Phillip L.
It took me 10 years to get my bachelors, and I followed that with 2 classes to finish a CCAF 2 year....simply because my Air Guard unit wanted the CCAF box checked, and didn't care about my bachelors degree (Even though it was in my career field).
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Why not go a step further and make a baccalaureate mandatory for selection to MSG? Enlisted Servicemembers are encouraged to seek the same level of education as their same-echelon Officer. Maybe PSGs should have a baccalaureate as well, since 2LT platoon leaders need them.
Back to reality... The selection for SGM (or equivocal ranks in other branches) is by virtue extremely competitive. Only a small percentage of those eligible can be selected, and the selection process--although not perfect--does a much more comprehensive job of looking at the whole Soldier than it would with arbitraty discriminators in place. The board members can see plain as day which degree or lack thereof each candidate has.
I already know I am less competitive for MSG without a 4-year degree (and don't get me started on a string of TDA PCSs and 3 cancelled deployments/WIAS taskers resulting in no deployments.) I DESERVE to be less competitive. But if something else about my service record and demonstrated performance puts me above a peer who has a Masters in Philosophy and sat unoccupied on an air base for 4-12 months and can't lead Soldiers out of a paper bag, then so be it.
Back to reality... The selection for SGM (or equivocal ranks in other branches) is by virtue extremely competitive. Only a small percentage of those eligible can be selected, and the selection process--although not perfect--does a much more comprehensive job of looking at the whole Soldier than it would with arbitraty discriminators in place. The board members can see plain as day which degree or lack thereof each candidate has.
I already know I am less competitive for MSG without a 4-year degree (and don't get me started on a string of TDA PCSs and 3 cancelled deployments/WIAS taskers resulting in no deployments.) I DESERVE to be less competitive. But if something else about my service record and demonstrated performance puts me above a peer who has a Masters in Philosophy and sat unoccupied on an air base for 4-12 months and can't lead Soldiers out of a paper bag, then so be it.
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Required - No
Encouraged - Sure
I am uncertain if CSMs Landry, Counts, Nielsen, Purdy, or Flowers ever had a degree, but I would follow those leaders into hell wrapped in det cord! It wasn't that they presented well thought arguments, or knew where to place a comma in a sentence. These leaders were hard, fair, and they lived in the field with the Soldier. They had doctorates in Field Craft. They oozed motivation out their pores. They were not only what right looked like, but they were mirrors to other members of the NCO Corps. They would show a 1SG, SFC, SSG, or SGT where they were deficient AND how to fix themselves.
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What is getting missed in all of this is the bigger picture. While neither a degree nor the ability to max the PT test ultimately determine what quality leader is produced, part of being a quality leader is flexibility. The Army is moving towards a model that does reflect many of the structures and methods of civilian sectors. In addition, the Army is starting to partner more and more with private entities to accomplish missions and drive down some inherent costs. A leader (meant to imply effective and "good") in the military has the ability and sensitivity to reach out to and connect with leaders and subordinates alike, influence for positive execution, and ensure communication throughout. Many a Soldier has exited military life as "leaders" only to find themselves without the necessary skills to effectively be a leader in any corporation that hires them. The ability to earn a degree demonstrates both the flexibility to understand what goes on in the civilian world, and how some lessons learned can be applied to the military, but the vision of a leader who hears and understands what is coming and can adapt with agility to incorporate that as well.
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No; what should be required is competence. I think we need a re-hack on how to promote and manage things. Degree requirements are nice to weed out some of the pool; but it doesn't work as well as it used to and honestly many of the graduates aren't too impressive. We need to get back into the hard work of looking really close at our applicants and selecting the best characters.
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Is our job in the military to train, fight and win wars or go to college? My issue as I stated before is that this requirement is not realistic for every job. Even with the draw down, I find it hard to believe everyone will be able to do this, and not by any fault of their own. I have my degree, because I nickel and dimed my classes for 10 years between deployments, field problems and schools. I finished in the SGM Academy. So I know how hard I worked to make it happen. I reported to USASMA at 17 years in. So I took 3 course per semester at the academy to finish before graduation. So I was in class until 2200 every night. It was rough. I think we are asking to set a precedent which is unrealistic. I commend those who got their degrees as a specialist because you were able to get special exception to leave the field to go to night school, but a young infantryman is, for the most part, not given permission to leave the field to go to school. I think as enlisted soldiers, we need to focus on being the best NCOs we can be. Be, know and do. I think it should be used as one of those discriminators, but making it mandatory will force individuals to focus on college and not their job which is training Americas sons and daughters the skills necessary to survive in combat.
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SGM Matthew Quick
SGM Preusser,
Yes, the Army's 'Mission' is to fight and win our nation's wars, BUT, we must be well rounded and educated Soldiers in order to accomplish this.
If a college education isn't realistic in every job (please give an example of an MOS which cannot take college), why does ever MOS Career Map include 'Guided Self Development' from beginning of a career, which includes many avenues which a Soldier can acquire civilian education credits?
Whether we ETS, are chaptered, QMPed/QSPed or retire, the Army will not always be there for you and you MUST plan for your future. As leaders, we must ensure our Soldiers ARE prepared for their futures.
If a college education isn't realistic in every job (please give an example of an MOS which cannot take college), why does ever MOS Career Map include 'Guided Self Development' from beginning of a career, which includes many avenues which a Soldier can acquire civilian education credits?
Whether we ETS, are chaptered, QMPed/QSPed or retire, the Army will not always be there for you and you MUST plan for your future. As leaders, we must ensure our Soldiers ARE prepared for their futures.
Although retaining Soldiers in the Regular Army and Reserve Components is the desired outcome of the Army Career Counseling process, preparation of soldiers to be more productive citizens in or out of the Army is the overall objective.
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CSM (Join to see)
Brother, I am not debating the importance of a college education. I agree it is important to be well rounded. That is why I spent my free time for 10 years, night, weekends, etc. completing my degree. I wanted to get it while I was in the military still. But I never missed a field problem, unit event, etc. to do it. I did every single assignment, on my own time.
My issue is with the suggestion that it should be a promotion requirement. I will tell you as an Infantryman, I was never given a pass on a field problem to go to school. I do not know too many 11Bs that I have served with that were given passes out of the field to go to school. I am sure as a career counselor, your schedule is a little more flexible than mine was/is. That was my choice to join the infantry. I don't dispute that. We cannot assume that all branches will equally allow their soldiers to go to school. I agree that it should be done. Again, I scheduled every test, assignment, etc. around the field, deployments, and other military requirements. It will require some discipline for sure. But it is something that should be required?
I understand our job INCLUDES preparing them to move on to civilian life. My primary job as a Senior Infantry NCO is to train/prepare them for combat. This is where I feel it is unrealistic a degree a requirement.
I agree with all you other points brother, I do. Education is important, not only to the individual Soldier, but to our society as a whole.
My issue is with the suggestion that it should be a promotion requirement. I will tell you as an Infantryman, I was never given a pass on a field problem to go to school. I do not know too many 11Bs that I have served with that were given passes out of the field to go to school. I am sure as a career counselor, your schedule is a little more flexible than mine was/is. That was my choice to join the infantry. I don't dispute that. We cannot assume that all branches will equally allow their soldiers to go to school. I agree that it should be done. Again, I scheduled every test, assignment, etc. around the field, deployments, and other military requirements. It will require some discipline for sure. But it is something that should be required?
I understand our job INCLUDES preparing them to move on to civilian life. My primary job as a Senior Infantry NCO is to train/prepare them for combat. This is where I feel it is unrealistic a degree a requirement.
I agree with all you other points brother, I do. Education is important, not only to the individual Soldier, but to our society as a whole.
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