Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?

then should they give the board points back to the soldiers and not worry about civil ed? A soldier going to a training facility only can get points now if they max out civilian ed and military ed. So to get close to enough points to become an NCO. Once there still has to focus on some way to gather points to go to the next rank. So by the time that NCO is a E6 he/she should almost have a 4 year degree when they get ready for E7. So should it be I say yes because with the draw down of deployments and no changes in the point structure should be no excuse why in their off time , just as they tell lower enlisted, they cant do it. Unless they are surrounded by a bunch of dirt bag soldiers . Not meaning to step on anyones toes or degrade any one. Just saying if they can put it out to a soldier time management so should they fallow the same. Unless they redo points system again then why not. If HRC WOULd actually or a Senior NCO track a new soldier going to lets say NTC as a first duty station . Track that soldier and see how hard it is and what that soldier has to do to make the grade to become an NCO they would see PT and weapons wont cut it when their points stay at 600 .Without maxing civil ed military ed and other schools that new soldier wont have a chance. Not every MOS gets lucky to see 100, 200,or even 39. So yes an education wont hurt anyone or kill any one to get in order to make the next grade. It was said the Army wants to go to a smarter Army since the draw.down so they should have enough personal time to accomplish this task. I dont remember ever seeing it in the NCO creed to cut corners instead of fulfil responcibilities inherent in that role. Maybe i missed something. Anyway An NCO should be held to higher standards and show his soldiers it is possible not generate excuses for them when they cant make the points to become an NCO them selves. What would you tell your soldier if they asked what you did to become and NCO. Oh i complained alot and whined because they changed the standards to get to the next rank. Ya thats what I want to hear .So either have HRC change they points system again or Let those that cant cut the mustard stay where they are and watchan nco they mentored pass them because that soldier used his/her spare time wisely. Any questions? HOOOOAH lets get those degrees

I agree with you all. Take the time and knock it out...with our military lifestyle and hours that we work, it does take time. Mine took like 15 years, partially because I lost track, lost my way, partially because of all the deployments.

Now, should it be a requirement, no. One thing though, if they make it a requirement via the regulations for SGM, CMSgt, or Master Chief...they have to pay for it...and with the way budget cuts are around, downsizing, and all that, I doubt DoD will cut out a budget to pay 100% for E-9s to have a Bachelor degree. Also, if and when they make it a requirement, they have to provide the time for the E-8 (or lower ranks) to get it.

CW4 (Join to see) - Making time for it was always my stumbling block. Every time I signed up for a class something always came up that according to my superiors only I could handle i.e. a tdy, staff assistance visit, exercise etc. Often times you have troops who carry the load while the suck ups attend classes. This is also why I retired as an E-7 at the 21 year mark.

SFC (Join to see) - "if you have earned a college degree since becoming an NCO, then you have not been the NCO that should be considered for promotion."

Conversely, someone might wonder why as an SFC you are doing so much "counseling, training, tracking". At this point in your career why aren't you allowing your subordinate NCOs to do their jobs? This looks like a span of control issue. I'm not saying that to be critical of you, it's very difficult for really good leaders to step back and allow the chain to work the way it's supposed to. I'm reminded of the scene in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" where John Wayne's character insists on leading a mission and is told his subordinates need to learn how to cross a river under fire, and they won't if he doesn't let them. If PVT Snuffy is coming in and asking questions their squad or even team leader should be handling, it's time to review the capabilities of your junior leaders.

I don't expect the NCO corps to need undergraduate degrees in order to do their jobs. Inevitably some clown will decide a degree is OK, but a MASTER'S is better and education creep will take over at the centralized promotion board level. I think just about ANYONE can manage an AA-level degree over a 20-year career if they take advantage of CLEP courses to knock out their freshman year. NCOES should be first and foremost as far as education requirements, and things like effective communication via writing and speech should be incorporated into that.

I completely agree SGM. Too many Soldiers get wrapped up about degrees. While it does prepare you for being a better civilian I question how well it prepared you for your current MOS/job.

SGM Preusser,

I propose that while not necessarily our job, it is possible for us to do both. And you SGM stand as an example of this fact. Granted most of us accomplish it where and when we can, but we get it done.

If a degree is not that important why are officers, and senior officers required to have the education? With online college this can happen and not miss out on field problems. And after 20 years an NCO should have the skills necessary to survive combat. Perhaps the evaluation and award recommendations will be written better.

SGM.  You make sense when some career fields may allow a person to study,  while another may not....

Why is our OWN guided self development on the Army's time?  If this is true, I hope we, as leaders, are granting work time for our Soldiers to complete their appropriate Structure Self Development courses.

Not all CPTs get to attend Advanced Civilian Schooling (ACS), in fact only about 400 per year are approved. Additionally, there are specific requirements (ADSO and the "need" for the degree has to be validated by the Army).

I am tracking and I agree. I don't think it is feasible for the enlisted side. I don't think a degree should be a requirement. I absolutely think you can earn a degree. It just took me nearly 10 years to do it. The original thread asked if this should be a requirement for promotion to SGM. I know folks from Class 63 who had 0 college credits. Now, I cannot speculate the reason why they had zero. But I know some who do.

Great points, SGM Anderson!

Higher education is a tool in the tool-bag of leadership. In addition, a degree will provide a leader with the ability to expand their way of thinking. Furthermore, enlisted service member will have a great deal more employment opportunities after they decided to leave the service or retire.  

I agree that it is important and it will help them out upon getting out of the military. The question was should it be a requirement for E9. I agree we should use our off duty time to get college. Again, let's be realistic. I grew up an Infantryman...My 1SG was not letting me come in from a 3 week field problem to go to college. You can not make a cookie cutter standard mixing MOSs for college. Not every Mos or branch will get equal time to do so. That is why 11Bs do not compete with paralegals for promotion. It cannot be equally implemented across the spectrum of the Army. Active and Reserve are also different. A reservist has more time without military commitment and a most stable work environment to be afforded the ability to do so. You must think outside your little box(MOS) and see what is feasible to all before we suggest this requirement.

I understand that those that have been in awhile will hate change but is it not our job to say hoooah rgr and march on whether tou like it or not. I am a mechanic and not given the oppertunity to walk in and say i have 39 points give me my E5 I my self at 44 but a SPC am worki g on a Degree with no quams. I know when I get out it will only benefit me and my family. Not very many jobs hire to shoot move and communicate. This year is the lostest my points have been in the 4.5 years and thats was at 413 it has sat at 798 for the last 4 years. So other then passing pt and 300 and getting 40 out of 40 where will I get the rest of the points? well thats were got no choice but civil ed , a degree, military education and awards if you can get them. and being realistic SGM there is no way in haydies any new SPC in a mechanic mos that has points sit at 798 for as long as they do will ever see NCO with out going for a degree. Trust me my NCOS will vouch that I have done all ssd's but ssd5 and now theu took them back as far as points ok there goes 80 points a piece and then no points for board so there is about 100 and some gone lowered the max points for civil ed to 78 and only 5 certs. ACCP for E5 stops at 390 for a whopping 62 points so if you add up this up SGM with out the 78 for civil ed oh lets not forget 4.5 years at NTC SO no deployment points unlike those who have deployments because NTC never deploys. Now lets get the calculator and see where I sit. .........I got 488 hmmm not very close to 798 huh. Well guess mechanics other then certain mech MOS's will ever see 39 am i promotable yes will i see E5 before RCP well if enough E6 and E7 and a few E6 fail to meet their requirements of what this whols discussion is about .No offence ment to any SR NCO's just saying ,then I have a shot at my E5. Until then i can almost feel the threads touch my finger tips but will probabaly never until one cop out change MOS or rack up a bunch deployments one right after the other so I can have those points then I will. Not to disrespect anyones rank but one old guy to another I bust my ars to get as far as I. an with no arguments of why I have to shouldnt the rest

Doesn't make you better, but an educated leader (on average) is a more efficient/effective leader compared to peers.

That also depends on what your definition of education is MSG Q, I know plenty of dumb asses that have 4 year degrees, some come in as specialists, some come in as LT's. SGM's should be given an honorary BBAS (Bachelor's of Bad Ass Science) from the University of Hard Knocks.

I think at a minimum an AA degree should be required for promotion to SGM.  I've seen many senior NCOs display a lack of critical thinking and fall into a pattern of group think or being slaves to tradition.  Hopefully a true academic classroom would help fix this problem.

I think it is hypocritical to expect 70 or 100 credit hours for SGT and SSG for promotion points but not expect senior NCOs to have some sort of degree for advancement.

Great points, Capt Yong!

I disagree.  

Good analogy, LTC Paul Labrador!

MAJ.   I was trying to think of putting it like you did yourself.  Brilliant!

Everyone looks essentially the same on paper. Boards are having to decide what separates people and makes them stand out. While I agree with the MAJ, that a bachelor's degree shouldn't be mandated, it is a good idea to get one.